Will I be able to return this (£££ item) as not fit for purpose? I'm so upset...

[CatONineTails]

I run a small business and have been saving for some time for a piece of machinery (that costs 4 figures) and is meant to be The Best at what I do. I am not new to this sort of machine, having used cheaper versions for the last decade, but this represents a significant upgrade in quality, ease of use, and functionality.

I bought one last week after emailing various companies that supply it. I went with the company whose engineer/technician I exchanged several emails with and seemed very knowledgeable and prompt with replies and information. They offered a good after sales service, telling me to contact them and they would help me with any issues.

The machine arrived last Wednesday, I set it up, had a fiddle and some testing and then started to make one of the items I sell. It started off well but when it came to the last few steps it was a disaster. Came out damaged and unsaleable. I spent the whole of the next day making test runs, changing settings etc. I emailed the supplier immediately to show photos of the problem and ask for their advice (which they had said they would be more than happy to give). They didn't reply!

I've joined forums and Facebook groups for users of the machine (or others in the same brand) and found several people with the same issues, and got various tips that have helped a little but nowhere near solved the problem. I've been suggested to try various different attachments, 2 of which I have bought and tried and have not helped, the 3rd one is nearly £100 and I'm loathe to spend more money just yet. Especially when this machine is meant to "just work" and makes claims that IMO it isn't living up to

I've now spent days fiddling and trying to get results similar to what I know is achievable with my much more basic older version. No joy. I cannot sell the items this new machine is making, my customers would be returning them as nowhere near my usually quality of work 😓

I emailed the company again yesterday to say I was still having the same problems and could someone please contact me.

But if they don't reply fast and with some advice that actually helps, will I be able to return it as unfit for purpose? I don't know if it is faulty or not, because it does some steps of the job I bought it for perfectly but then completely buggers up others. But it is certainly unfit for my purposes unless the supplier is able to troubleshoot for me.

I'm so upset at the thought of wasting this money on something that I cannot use!

Sorry I should add, I know you can return things for no reason at all within 14 days if bought online but that's if in as new condition, and I've set this up and started using it only to find it's unusable for me and that the company are not replying to me requests for advice and troubleshooting! So it's not "as new" now, it's been used because how else would I find out if it worked...?

I'm not sure whether this is a consumer law matter or commercial contract one. What terms and conditions have you agreed to when buying the item? That's your first step. How did you pay?

Most but not all of the sale of goods act applies to b2b contracts. I would suggest you put everything in writing and email it plus send it recorded delivery to their head office. Outline the transaction, delivery and every conversation you’ve had with them in the attempt to make it work properly z
I’m not clear from what you say whether this particular machine is faulty or of the machine just isn’t as good as you thought it would be? Do you want a replacement or to cancel the contract and take a refund? Stop using the machine and confirm that you’ve done so. Specify what it is you’re looking for and request a response within 5 business days.
In the meantime, look at the vendor’s most recent company accounts on Companies House (if it’s a ltd company) - how long have they been trading / what cash reserves did they have at the last accounting date? It will give you some idea of the health of the company and their ability to refund cut of course current circumstances mean that there may have been a dramatic change. Either way - it’s their problem to solve not the manufacturer of the machine (if that’s someone else)

I paid via PayPal and paid VAT as I'm not VAT registered. I'm a sole trader rather than a limited company if that helps (very small one woman business).

I don’t know how much traffic the Legal board gets, but it might be worth posting there also.

I’d say that if it doesn’t do what you need it do to, and it was bought on the basis that it would, then you’ve got adequate grounds for a refund of a mis-sold product. But others should be able to give you better advice as to how you stand.

If you paid by personal credit card, and if all else fails, you can approach your card provider for a refund under s75 of the consumer credit act. I don’t know if this applies to business cards, but might be worth bearing in mind.

Good luck.

Urgh. PayPal terms and conditions are notoriously poor for asserting CC rights. That may not help you. It needs to be with the company

Sorry, cross posted, ignore my credit card suggestion.

Oh it's a very well established reputable company that I bought it from, I have no concerned that they are scammers or about to go bust.

The machine simply does not do what I need it to. What I do isn't particularly specialised or unusual, and I've been happily doing it for years with far cheaper more basic versions! It literally never occured to me that this new machine would struggle with something so basic. I don't want to say what exactly it is because it's outing, but it really isn't anything difficult that I'm trying to do. It's a fundamental part of the purpose that the machine is designed for!

I don't even feel like I could cut my losses and sell it on, because if there is actually a problem with it then the buyer will just want a refund from me

Without knowing whether the machine was sold or advertised to do that specific thing, it’s hard to say if the product is “faulty “. If it’s a lawnmower that doesn’t cut grass - faulty. But if it’s a lawnmower that doesn’t leave neat stripes because it doesn’t have a roller and you just assumed it would leave nice stripes because it’s expensive, but it does still cut grass - not faulty

What does their returns policy say?

Have no idea about the legal side of things, but I'm guessing sewing machine :-)

To run with the lawnmower analogy - it's like the premium lawnmower make, that is meant to be able to mow even the most overgrown lawn full of weeds, that makes a selling point out of the fact it is super easy to use, claims to be very powerful so it can mow all sorts of weeds and undergrowth not just grass, and just mows away at almost any sort of lawn without a problem. But in reality, if you try to mow anything other than thin grass that's already quite short, it struggles and gets in a tangle and stops mowing because it needs grass removing from the blade before it can carry on. And if it meets anything that isn't a blade of grass (like maybe, I don't know, a dock, or a slightly longer clump of grass) it just sort of stops and struggles.

That's about what I'm dealing with here, but not with a lawnmower!

So stop using it, insist on a refund and start doing everything in writing. Refer to all the claims about performance in the sales literature/ conversations you’ve had with them

If the items it produces for you are damaged and unsaleable then the machine is faulty. It doesn’t do what you bought it to do, what it is advertised to do. Whether it is literally faulty or just crap isn’t relevant.

Returns for faulty products don’t have the rule that they need to be unopened and unused, that’s just for unwanted goods. Obviously you can’t know something is faulty until you’ve set it up.

If you don’t get an answer from the technical guy then put this all in writing to the CEO and CC the head of the technical team. Send photos of the damaged goods it produces and detail your attempts to solve the problem.

I’d also contact PayPal. Contrary to what a PP said - I’ve found them excellent at getting money back in these kinds of situations. Ask them how their policies might apply.

Tatiana I do not think your advice is correct - it very much matters whether it is literally faulty or just crap. Faulty products can potentially be repaired or replaced by the seller. A product which doesn't live up to the claims about its functions is either misdescribed or simply not fit for purpose.

OP I would follow Herman's advice on this.

Industrial machinery is expressly excluded from the PayPal t&cs so while they may have helped you on some consumer transaction, this one may we’ll be excluded. Their t&cs are notoriously poor.

It's not actually industrial. It's just a very high end machine. There's nothing to say it can't be used for business purposes (many people do), but it isn't sold as an industrial version.

Go to Paypal and start a dispute, that will get their attention and you can go from there.

Find the transaction and there should be a link near the bottom, I think it is resolve a problem or similar.

I have always found paypal is excellent with refunds.

Is your PayPal a business PayPal account or just a personal account you use for your business?

If it's a personal account, then you dont have to worry about having less rights as a business to business buyer and the sewing machine (I assume) wont be treated as an industrial item. Anyone can buy a fancy sewing machine. PayPal are actually quite good for consumers; they very often side with the buyer so raise a dispute, attach all your photos of the faulty work it produces and let paypal deal with it.

Phone the company from a different phone and tell them you are mrs. jones wanting to buy a ‘lawnmower’. They will ring you back as you sound like a buyer. That way you can ask them what their terms and conditions are etc. by asking them what you should do if the machine doesn’t ‘cut grass’ properly etc.

Tape the call so you can rewind exactly what was said. If they say head office deals with returns ask them if they are open. He’ll say yes ask for the phone number. As you just want to check, you can never be too careful with a considered purchase tinkly laugh. Tell them you’ll think about buying it thanks goodbye without saying who you really are.

If you can’t get the phone number for future use send a letter recorded delivery to the address stating to let them know it’s faulty. Under the sale of goods act I believe goods have to be fit for the purpose for which they are intended. You will have asked about that on the call ‘does it leave nice stripes on my lawn or do I have to buy an extra roller’ and he’ll have said ‘yes it does no need to buy extra bits‘. So you’ll have that info to use against them if the wriggle later?

@CatONineTails

I paid via PayPal and paid VAT as I'm not VAT registered. I'm a sole trader rather than a limited company if that helps (very small one woman business).

The VAT point is irrelevant, the business has to charge VAT to all customers, it's not related to your VAT status

I would spend no more money, do as the poster above says and send a strongly worded factual letter to the HO rejecting the machine, asking for a refund and how to arrange a return.

If it's a reputable large company I would guess you won't be the only person who's ever asked for a refund

Good luck

The point about Vat was just that when you enter their website, the company ask you to click whether you are a business or private customer - if you click business they show you prices without VAT, and if you click private they show you prices with VAT. I had to choose private as I am not VAT registered and therefore not eligible for the business pricing!

So as far as they are concerned I'm just a private customer, though in my emails before purchasing I did say that I run a small business.

As far as buying extra bits goes - I wouldn't mind if there was any sort of guarantee that they would work, or if the company itself suggested them rather than me reading they they might possibly help on Facebook. But IMO a £1k+ machine should not need a £100 part adding on in order to do what a £200 version of the same machine can just do straight off with no faffing or extra parts needed! My old machines (I have had 3 before, all from different brands) have literally never struggled with what this machine struggles with.