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dreamingbohemian · 02/06/2020 09:30

This is just the first example I saw on Twitter this morning of police unnecessarily shooting at non-violent protest:

twitter.com/jonlis1/status/1267728510015148033?s=20

This is why use of force guidelines are so important. In some cities this would not happen because their guidelines rightly say force should only be used as a last resort. This is a reform that lots of people are pushing for.

Notejode · 02/06/2020 09:33

CaribouCarafe

I do not think people are confused here but do you really think the arson and looting in America are helping. Those acts will not be justified. In fact they may help to keep Trump in power.

MashedSpud · 02/06/2020 09:39

@DemolitionCrew

I couldn’t imagine anything worse than being American

I couldn’t imagine anything worse than making sweeping statements deriding or pitying (not sure which was your intention) an entire continent.

With all due respect don’t bring Canada into it. They are two very different countries who happen to share the same continent.

That’s like saying the whole of Europe is French.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

dreamingbohemian · 02/06/2020 09:43

Another example of cops attacking people who were just standing there, including the press:

twitter.com/Beltrew/status/1267724817903620098?s=20

THIS is what is not helping.

Cam77 · 02/06/2020 09:48

Some people need/desire time to themselves. You might not desire it but he obviously does. Seems it’s more common among men, but mostly depends on the individual. Give as long as he wants within what’s practical work/finances wise. The proviso being of course that you get exactly the same time , which is vital. Otherwise he will owe you and you will resent each other.

CaribouCarafe · 02/06/2020 09:57

@Notejode I don't know whether they will help in the long term or not, I can't comment on that.

I think these actions are used to try and justify the police violence against all protesters, and that is wrong - just because some people are engaging in property damage and theft should not give license to the police to assault general members of the public indiscriminately.

The video @dreamingbohemian linked is disgusting - the way the police approach the camera man and just punch him for no reason.

As I pasted in the Guardian article before, there is a distinction between property damage and violence against humans.

At the moment, I see the conversation about looting and arson more as a gaslighting tactic to divert attention from the legitimate demands of the majority of protesters and as a way of justifying the police brutality against them.

Cam77 · 02/06/2020 10:00

Darkly ironic that it’s all kicked off just as the US was trying to turn the heat up on China over Hong Kong (and the handling of Coronavirus, which the US of course has also excelled at)

FromEden · 02/06/2020 10:01

Well the protests in my city were largely peaceful but now a police officer has ended up being shot in the head. I'm worried what will happen tomorrow night now

Notejode · 02/06/2020 10:23

CaribouCarafe I do not think it is gaslighting it is happening . Some people started looting. Even the small business without enough insurance cover have been affected. We have a fair number of friends and family in America telling us they were ready and looking forward to start working yesterday. Now more uncertainty and destruction. None of them are questioning the unfair killing of GF in the hands of the police. These are two separate things and wherever the lefties newspapers published about violence. The average person condemns these acts.

dreamingbohemian · 02/06/2020 10:24

I find it disturbing that so many people are trying to justify police violence by saying it's the only way to deal with looting and arson.

It's clear that the police are not limiting their focus to violent actors. There are hundreds of videos out there of police driving through crowds, shooting journalists and bystanders, pepper spraying people in the face who are just standing there. None of this has anything to do with stopping looting or arson.

The police are not above the law. Violence and disorder happen in society, that does not mean the police get to use any means necessary to try to stop it. If the aim is truly to stop violence and destruction, there are many ways to do that short of using force -- ways that are usually more effective.

Notejode · 02/06/2020 10:33

dreamingbohemian I find it disturbing that people is ok with violence, arsoning and looting. There also ways more effective ways to protest than burning a country.

peaceanddove · 02/06/2020 10:35

Endless media footage of black people rioting, setting fire to things and mindlessly looting will just reinforce the perception that black people are dangerous and violent. It will just feed and confirm racist perception. A vast but dignified and peaceful protest would have been much more powerful and positive. But a dignified and peaceful protest doesn't garner you a new 50" TV for free or allow you to indulge the violent and thuggish side of your personality.

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 02/06/2020 10:36

Trump is supported and financed by powerful men on the extreme right, including white supremacist groups and religious fundamentalist groups.

Some of those people want a race war. They want to turn the USA into Gilead, essentially.

Police and military have been beating up and opening fire on unarmed peaceful protestors and there are even videos of tanks going into residential homes and shooting up private homes. These people are not even peaceful protestors, they are literally just sitting in their own homes.

Trump was very careful in his use of words. Invoking the Second Amendment, which is an amendment giving SLAVE OWNERS the right to use violence and vigilante gangs to control and punish slaves. One of the reasons the second amendment (the right to bear arms) was added to the constitution was because of pressure from slave owners. Trump knew what message he was sending out when he used that inflammatory and violence-inciting reference.

CaribouCarafe · 02/06/2020 10:42

@Notejode no-one is denying that it is happening, but some people (like myself) think it's problematic to bring it into the discussion as it obscures so much of the narrative.

Yes, people are looting. But the police response is disproportionate.

Why are people looting? A) Some looters are opportunists, B) some people are disenfranchised to the extent that they don't see any point in upholding the social contract of 'not stealing' when it is the social order that has disenfranchised them in the first place, C) protest against capitalism.

The key thing is that the majority of protesters are not looting.

The majority of protesters want systematic change so that black people and ethnic minorities don't suffer at the hands of systematic racism.

The looting element can be discussed later, but the protest element needs to be discussed now - discussion needs to be centred on: 1) the changes that need to happen to enable black Americans to live safely and equitably in America, 2) police brutality and systematic changes that need to be implemented to improve the police force to work FOR the people and not against them.

Piggywaspushed · 02/06/2020 10:45

How do you think a vast and dignified protest would have been shown on the TV,and framed by Trump? There was one of those (although I do object to the word dignified) in Trafalgar Square, which received hardly any coverage on the BBC News, and attracted criticism on MN and from righter wing MPs. There are vast and dignified protests in many US citied, most specifically Minneapolis, which are receiving hardly any attention.

Likewise t. the police who are 'taking a knee' wit protestors are due to be vilified by trump and his acolytes.

user764329056 · 02/06/2020 10:45

Well said Caribou

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 02/06/2020 10:48

It’s also clear that some of the looting and rioting is being done by white people and Antifa groups, and possibly undercover police. Possibly opportunistic, possibly people with an agenda to incite violence for which black people will be blamed.

There are several videos online of black peaceful protestors trying to stop white rioters from looting and smashing up stores.

CaribouCarafe · 02/06/2020 11:00

Also, on the matter of perceptions of looting, please watch this video showing black people asking (white) protesters to stop damaging property and looting

There's been lots of reports stating that white people are partly responsible for escalating the protests and inciting violence.

I've seen many videos of black protesters asking white people to tone down their anger/violence and protest peacefully.

There are also reports that some non-protesters are engaging in violent behaviour opportunistically (either for personal or political gain)

Excerpts from the "Many Claim Extremists Are Sparking Protest Violence. But Which Extremists?"

'“We have reason to believe that bad actors continue to infiltrate the rightful protests of George Floyd’s murder, which is why we are extending the curfew by one day,” Gov. Tim Walz of Minnesota tweeted on Sunday, after previously suggesting that white supremacists or people from outside the state fomented the unrest.

...“Groups of outside radicals and agitators are exploiting the situation to pursue their own separate, violent and extremist agenda,” Mr. Barr said. “The violence instigated and carried out by antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”

...“We’re going to see a diversity of fringe malefactors,” said Brian Levin, the director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at California State University, San Bernardino. “We know for a fact there have been far-right agitators both online and at these rallies, as well as far-left.”

...Far-right adherents generated an avalanche of posts on social media in recent days suggesting the unrest was a sign that the collapse of the American system they have long awaited was at hand. These groups, known as “accelerationists,” attempt to promote any circumstances that might speed that goal.

The looting is being used as a tactic to gaslight legitimate demands.

Right-wing organisations are using it to spread division and to undermine the George Floyd protests.

Left-wing organisations (such as Antifa) are using it for their own agenda.

Notejode · 02/06/2020 11:03

CaribouCarafe I see what you mean and hope for the same outcome.

dreamingbohemian · 02/06/2020 11:04

The looting and violence is being done by a small minority of people, and there is indeed video evidence that quite a bit of it is being done by white people, anarchists, opportunists, i.e. people taking advantage of the situation. So to chastise the protest movement for looting is not fair. You see lots of protesters actually stopping looting and violence.

Again, if the cops really want to stop the looting and arson, they should be working with the protest movement to help stop it, not shooting at them.

calpolatdawn · 02/06/2020 11:05

Oh, jeez. Martial law doesn't seem like a great idea in a country where so many citizens own their own guns.

This Confused

PegHughes · 02/06/2020 11:20

This is enlighteneing:

twitter.com/lynnellmick/status/1266489791018721280

PegHughes · 02/06/2020 11:23

enlightening, even Hmm

dreamingbohemian · 02/06/2020 11:24

Thanks for posting that Peg that is really eye-opening.

It was really strange to see last week in Minneapolis, the police were nowhere when the looting and arson were happening and then they were all over the peaceful protests. That thread explains a lot.

Notejode · 02/06/2020 11:29

*The looting and violence is being done by a small minority of people, and there is indeed video evidence that quite a bit of it is being done by white people, anarchists, opportunists, i.e. people taking advantage of the situation. So to chastise the protest movement for looting is not fair. You see lots of protesters actually stopping looting and violence.

Again, if the cops really want to stop the looting and arson, they should be working with the protest movement to help stop it, not shooting at them.*

How do genuine peaceful protests can stop this from happening?

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