Real boy and girl differences

[EveryoneLoves09876]

There is so much debate about real differences in sex (as opposed to gender and culture norms). You also get so much gender disappointment and I know mumsnet is mostly girl preference, but I've had jobs working in communities where boys are enormously favoured, so don't feel too sorry for boys lol. This doesn't give the real picture.

I'd be really interested in seeing what mumsnetters think are the main differences are between their girls and boys - if they have both!! Or do you really think the differences are nothing to do with their sex?

I have a baby boy and try to be as neutral as possible, giving him all sorts of toys and clothing (e.g. dolls as well as trains, clothes from boys and girls section although I haven't actually put him in a dress!) I don't want to bring him up in a sexist way but I'm sure I am without realising it! I try not to see his traits as sex related, although family already go on about his energy and appetite as if that's a male thing. I have no daughter to compare him to!

Do you feel like this is a real difference and what are they if so?

Well I personally find it hard to get my head around the 'born in the wrong body' thing. It's your body - it's wasn't possible for you to be born in a different one.

It seems to me that this trope is akin to souls, as if all these souls are waiting to drop into bodies and a soul might drop into the 'wrong' body - it's not a faith I subscribe to.

I'm left handed, which is unusual for humans and is something that a couple of generations ago would have been beaten out of me, to my psychological and physical detriment. My hand preference is not 'wrong', it's just unusual. Extremely feminine boys and masculine girls are not 'wrong' - just unusual and we need to start accepting them rather than trying to force them into more socially acceptable boxes, either through behaviour change or gender change.

(Not an expert in these matters!)

For young children, I think that some stereotypes are so ingrained in society, if they feel they don't live up to correct stereotype, they start to believe they are the opposite. I actually saw it in my own Dinosaur loving girl for a bit. She would say 'Im a boy today' as she played with her dinosaurs or trains. But when I reassured her that everyone could like dinosaurs, and I liked dinosaurs etc, she went back to being happy she was a girl. If a boy is told only girls could play with dolls or like princesses, or a girl is told football is for boys... They may start to think differently.

The situation is a lot more comes than that, but I personally think that rigid gender stereotypes can lead to confusion in children.

I have never , ever bought toy weapons for my ds but he uses the broom as a light sabre after watching star wars ! Hes 6 .
Maybe this is an ingrained hunter / gatherer thing that's in our genes?
He did have a dolly as a toddler and now he is 6 I expect him to help with simple household chores so I am trying! But maybe nature wins out ...... ?

@Mucklowe the study I referenced above on kids with CAH mentions the trans debate in the discussion. I can’t remember if it was that study or one of the others but girls with CAH (a hormone deficiency) have physical changes, and play much more like boys in terms of toy choice, but they don’t express any desire to change their assigned gender to male.

my ds but he uses the broom as a light sabre after watching star wars

so does my DD. Leia and Rey use light sabres too.

I am convinced gender stereotyping is the reason people feel 'wrong'. Tere was this children's book discussed here some time ago, about a boy who liked sparkles and ballet (or something similar). What was the message of the book, that boys are allowed to like sparkles and ballet? Of course not, it means that he was actually trans and really a girl..

I have a baby boy and try to be as neutral as possible, giving him all sorts of toys and clothing (e.g. dolls as well as trains, clothes from boys and girls section although I haven't actually put him in a dress!) I don't want to bring him up in a sexist way but I'm sure I am without realising it

It's all well and good you trying to be neutral, but the whole of society is saturated through and through with stereotypes and genderised clothing, toys, books, aisles, everything. It's absolutely endemic. I feel sorry for parents trying to shield their children from it. It's an impossible task, and all you can do is beat off the worst, most obvious instances and hope he comes out relatively unscathed.

And I mean this kindly, but even in your attempt to be neutral you are putting dolls in the girl box and trains in the boy box. That's what I mean about the impossibility of it.

I know @buzzshit :(

I agree with PP highlighting how gender stereotypes could lead to confusion in children. A boy that happens to be interested in dancing, glittery stuff and music but is told these are things that girls enjoy could easily think he should be a girl, and vice versa.

It is so ingrained in our society though. My best friend was talking to me a few weeks ago about how her 5 year old son loves dancing (and he does have great rhythm!) - I mentioned the dance class my daughter had started & how fun it was. She replied that her DH would probably feel funny about it so they might try gymnastics instead. Why?!

he uses the broom as a light sabre after watching star wars ! Hes 6 . Maybe this is an ingrained hunter / gatherer thing that's in our genes?
You have literally just explained why he uses it as a light sabre - he watches a cool movie, he thought the light sabre was cool so emulated that. That's fairly standard copying the cool thing, not hard wired genes. He could just as easily watch HP and use it as a flying broom to play quidditch

but he uses the broom as a light sabre after watching star wars ! Hes 6 .
Maybe this is an ingrained hunter / gatherer thing that's in our genes?

Nope. Like PP have said it's more likely a copying thing.
The most often used 'toys' at my mums house (by all her Grandchildren, boys and girls aged from 2-15) are some long cardboard tubes from inside some wrapping paper or something. They have been
Lightsabre
Broomsticks
Harry Potter wands
Fairy wands
Hoover's
Lawn mowers
Twirling sticks
Balance bar things to help balance when 'tightrope' walking (ie a line of string on the floor)
Rifles
Swords
Smacking sticks
Telescopes
We whisper down them to each other
Whistles
Trumpets

Probably more than that. But mainly things that one or another child has seen on tv then recreates. Even 2 year old will tell you it's a lightbay (lightsabre) as she waves it around. She has no idea what star wars is,but its 13 year olds favourite and she adores him!

I've never been able to understand why it upsets people so much that their are innate differences between the sexes. There have been noticeable differences between my two from an early age. DS has always been fascinated by vehicles and how things work. DD loves animals and role playing with cuddly toys. Both have had a wide variety of toys available to them but they have been very clear in their interests.

I'm a childminder so look after children from a young age, and have had many over the years. I also have 2 boys of my own. I would say no, there isn't really a difference. Children are completely unaware of sex apart from what they have been taught. I have a range of all different toys, all children love playing with them all. Prams and dolly's are always a favourite no matter what sex. Sometimes boys are a bit more physical, but that's not a rule.

I am convinced gender stereotyping is the reason people feel 'wrong'.

Yup I completely agree with that. A lot of people I know actually like the gender stereotypes, I don't know if they realise they are doing it, or it's just so ingrained they can't help it, but the children are very much pushed into the gender roles with the clothes they are dressed in, they toys they are bought, they way they are treated.

I've never been able to understand why it upsets people so much that their are innate differences between the sexes. There have been noticeable differences between my two from an early age. DS has always been fascinated by vehicles and how things work. DD loves animals and role playing with cuddly toys. Both have had a wide variety of toys available to them but they have been very clear in their interests.

It is rather naive to not acknowledge the incredible power of gender and stereotypes in the world. It's almost part of the air they breathe.

@Twigletmama

I've never been able to understand why it upsets people so much that their are innate differences between the sexes. There have been noticeable differences between my two from an early age. DS has always been fascinated by vehicles and how things work. DD loves animals and role playing with cuddly toys. Both have had a wide variety of toys available to them but they have been very clear in their interests.

59

I've never been able to understand why it upsets people so much that their are innate differences between the sexes

Because I don't want people to tell my son he can't like dancing? I don't want my daughter to think she must be trans because she likes Star Wars? I don't want them to think certain choices are not for them based on what genitals they have. How is it a good thing to put people in blue and pink boxes?

@BuzzShitbagBobbly
I studied Sociology at university so I would consider myself fairly familiar with the nature/ nurture debate.
Most studies show that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I don't think it is helpful or correct to completely deny the existence of innate differences between the sexes, even from an early age.

What do you mean by deny differences? You mean like the parents who refuse to tell anybody what sex their child is, call the child 'them' and give them only wooden blocks to play with? Sure you hear of such cases, but they are rather the exception, it does not seem like a common issue to me.

@Twigletmama

I've never been able to understand why it upsets people so much that their are innate differences between the sexes. There have been noticeable differences between my two from an early age. DS has always been fascinated by vehicles and how things work. DD loves animals and role playing with cuddly toys. Both have had a wide variety of toys available to them but they have been very clear in their interests.

There have been noticeable differences between my two from a young age as well. One role played with baby dolls and cuddly toys far more than the other. One builds Lego and then displays it on a shelf. One still (at 13) builds and plays with Lego (eg making the characters do things). One loves craft. One will make things for 2 mins and get bored. One can knit. One can sew. One will google why something is broken and help fix it. One will tell me to buy a new one. One is very tidy and organised. One is a messy disorganised person. One loves reading. The other would read if their life depended on it but rarely touches a book.

If they were different sexes it would be easy to put these differences down to that. But they are both boys. The differences are down to personality. Thats all.

I think it is all in society beyond the obvious differences. The pink nonsense, the glorification of clothing, makeup, hair etc, the worshipping of women who are plastered in slap and stagger around in painful shoes.

look what happens when a young female dies; all the tributes say 'beautiful' unless she really doesn't meet the norms. Any achievements or potential get ignored in favour of looks.

There was a woman murdered last year where this was notably absent, she had short hair and wasn't super slim - she had also achieved a lot which did at least get noted. All that a large part of society seems to value about females is how they look -and it starts with the 'beautiful baby girl' crap, or the opposite that the OP is getting. That needs to stop. Keep them out of the shops as long as possible and away from the boy/girl aisles, burn any clothes that have 'gorgeous' logos or similar and never comment on appearance, just behaviour and achievement.

Admittedly there isn't much else to say about a baby, they are just blobs, until they smile when they are all cute regardless of what is between their legs.

@Twigletmama Psychology graduate here. The innate differences are actually very minimal.

@KatharinaRosalie
@PorpentiaScamander

Many people on this thread are denying that there are innate differences between the sexes. I disagree.

@CherryPavlova has already given a clear argument as to why it is important to recognise differences between boys and girls, so I don't think it's necessary to repeat this. My post was supporting what she is saying and commenting on my own observed experiences between my children, as the OP requested.

CherryPavlova said, and I agree with the following: We should be more willing to teach our children their characteristics that are innate and down to their genetic make up are good things.

Are you saying then that all boys are genetically more something and less something else than all girls? All boys have characteristic X and all girls have Y? We have to have boy learning and girl learning?

Because even if there are, on average, more boys who have certain characteristics than girls, on average, I can't believe that there isn't a significant overlap. And if we tell that all boys have to learn a certain way, aren't we disadvantaging the boys who are at the lower end of the scale for that characteristics, and girls who are on the higher end?

Even if we say boys are born to be more physical and like rough and tumble, and girls like to sit and do crafts, I would still rather have 'rough and tumble' playgroup and 'arts and crafts' playgroup, not boys and girls ones.

@Twigletmama but what are the innate differences?
You listed things your DD likes and things your DS likes.
I have 2 sons who like all those things you listed, therefore how can they be an innate difference based on sex? They also used to go to a craft club and did dance lessons and karate.