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Original poster

What is the value of british citizenship over "indefinite leave to remain"?

79 replies

Ukelele3 · 26/05/2020 22:39

What is the value of british citizenship over "indefinite leave to remain"? Particularly for those who are from the EU and already have indefinite leave to remain and settled status.

Aside from being able to vote in the general elections, I really cannot see any other clear advantage to being a citizen of Britain rather than a permanent resident? So, why does it cost nearly £1,500 to get it? (I assume cost usually matches demand so clearly people are willing to pay this). Obviously, who knows how different things will be for EU citizens after brexit, but for now, you can still buy a house, get a job, etc. in the UK without being a british citizen.

Please enlighten me.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 27/05/2020 14:01

No, most were granted ILR. Most were not British citizens due to Jamaica’s gaining independence in 1962, at which point, all Jamaicans in Jamaica lost British citizenship. Only those who arrived in the UK prior to 6 August, 1962 were British citizens.

So, as I said Windrush generation - arrived in 1948 - were British citizens. As were their children.

Hard not to get prickly when someone quotes you to prove you right.

PlanDeRaccordement · 27/05/2020 14:17

DG Rossetti,
Windrush refers to more than the first ship, Tilbury, that arrived in 1948.
It starts then, but goes until 1988. So, still, most who are classified as Windrush were granted ILR. Only a minority arrived as British citizens.

From the U.K. Gov websites
“You could be eligible for the Windrush Scheme if you are:
-a Commonwealth citizen who settled in the UK before 1 January 1973 or has right of abode
-a child of a Commonwealth citizen parent who settled before 1 January 1973, where you were born in the UK or arrived in the UK before the age of 18
-a person of any nationality who settled in the UK before 31 December 1988 and is settled in the UK”

Also read this news story
Members of the Windrush generation who arrived in the UK before 1973 will be eligible for free citizenship, the Home Secretary has announced.
www.gov.uk/government/news/free-citizenship-for-the-windrush-generation

Amber Rudd said
“It is only right that the significant contribution the Windrush generation have made to the UK is recognised. That is why I want to ensure they can acquire the status they deserve – British citizenship – quickly, at no cost and with proactive assistance through the process.”

DGRossetti · 27/05/2020 14:25

Windrush refers to more than the first ship, Tilbury, that arrived in 1948.

Not when I say it Grin. But thanks for the steer.

PlanDeRaccordement · 27/05/2020 14:28

Oh, my cutting and pasting did that. Sorry. It shouldread “...first ship, Windrush, docked at Tilbury,...”.

Good catch. :)

GrumpyHoonMain · 27/05/2020 14:30

Being a UK citizen is best if he’s Indian or Pakistani because otherwise things get tricky if you need legal help. The Nazneen case was a problem specifically because her dual nationality meant the UK had no right to directly intervene - had forfeited her Iranian citizenship she would only have had UK citizenship and could have been extradited.

Ellmau · 27/05/2020 15:56

If you are not a British citizen, you can’t get on the electoral roll.

You can (or could) if an EU citizen, with the right to vote in Euro elections only noted (obviously no longer); or if Commonwealth with ILR.

Davros · 27/05/2020 15:58

But not general elections or referenda presumably

ouch321 · 27/05/2020 16:00

Yeah my friend has ILR and was considering this and said the best bit would be a UK passport for easy travel to Europe and less hassle with visas.

Even in other countries outside EU, UK passport holders tend to be treated more favourably in terms of documentation requirements.

reluctantbrit · 27/05/2020 16:58

@Ukelele3 we never thought about applying as apart from voting didn’t think we would gain anything. As a EU citizen you have virtually all the rights you need.

Also, at this time we would have, expensively, to apply to remain Germans. Not sure when the rules about retaining your Birth nationality changed so it was easier to accquire another EU citizenship.

Windrush was definitely an eye opener. Not so much about the legality of ILTR but how this country is keeping track of paperwork. Settled status comes via a text/email, that’s hardly reassuring to hope that in 30 years time I or Dd is able to get some detailed official confirmation in case it may be needed,

It is virtually impossible to get confirmation that DD is a British citizen as we didn’t apply for settled status before she was born, at that time we could just prove it by providing documents showing that we were already 5+ years in the UK and she got her passport. That was under EU rules from 2006, something the UK May just conveniently forget about in 30 years and all children born until BREXIT will have a hell of a time trying to prove something.

SerendipityJane · 27/05/2020 17:03

Windrush was definitely an eye opener. Not so much about the legality of ILTR but how this country is keeping track of paperwork.

Remember the Home Office was repeatedly warned about the destruction of records.

Windrush wasn't an "accident". It was premeditated. And nearly worked. If the Home Office hadn't messed up and decided to do it when the Brexit debate was focussing peoples attention on the treatment of ILR and citizenship, they would have got away with it too.

In fact they probably are still getting away with it, as they certainly haven't settled anything yet. Out of sight out of mind, eh ?

EchidnasPhone · 27/05/2020 17:03

I’m from a commonwealth country and have had ILR for 14 years. I’ve contemplated getting dual passport but it doesn’t seem necessary and it’s a big expense. Husband is British and children hold British passports but can also get dual passports when/if they want. The citizenship test is hard! Which is also off putting 🤦‍♀️ Has anyone tried the online tests?? Even those who had all their schooling in the U.K. struggle

FFSFFSFFS · 27/05/2020 17:03

If you want to stay in the UK long term you would be insane not to apply for citizenship.

Rules can be changed at will and who knows where things might head!

EchidnasPhone · 27/05/2020 17:05

Also I am able to vote and also being Scotland completed a uni honours degree without fees...

ittakes2 · 27/05/2020 17:08

I have indefinite leave to remain and I can vote. I was going to get one as easier at passport control - but now they have the machines I am not so sure there are huge advantages. I would say if you are interested in spending lots of time in Australia it’s helpful as uk and australia have reciprocal medical agreements. But other than that I am not so sure it’s helpful anymore.

SimonJT · 27/05/2020 17:13

@EchidnasPhone It’s really easy, some of the questions are slightly odd, but it isn’t difficult. I’ve passed it (UK educated) as has my boyfriend (not UK educated). Don’t put yourself off just because you don’t have the confidence to give it a go.

Davros · 27/05/2020 17:16

we never thought about applying as apart from voting didn’t think we would gain anything. isn't that enough?
My German friend got 100% on the citizenship test but she is very clever, I'd probably fail!

Original poster
Ukelele3 · 27/05/2020 17:19

Thanks everyone so far. I believe I am on the electoral roll due to being an EU citizen who can vote in the local elections (unless there is a separate electoral roll for those who can vote in the general elections).

OP posts:
Original poster
Ukelele3 · 27/05/2020 17:20

@EchidnasPhone the citizenship test is not hard as long as you read the official book and practice some questions.

@Davros how did your friend find out her score? We were told they dong give our scores. Only if pass or fail.

OP posts:
Tigersneeze · 27/05/2020 17:22

all you need to do is to have a look to what happened to the windrush generation to know the answer.

a passport/citizenship is the only way to ensure a pension/right to remain when you are old and not paying income tax anymore. in 30 years the brexit promises and meaningless settlement scheme emails (not even a solid piece if proof) will be forgotten, and you will be without any rights

mightybuzz · 27/05/2020 17:22

I am not applying for citizenship. Although I live here, have children, husband, and a house - if for some reason the UK didn't 'want' me anymore, my family would up and move to my home country.
My own country is a bit dodgy when it comes to dual nationality and I'd rather not risk losing my nationality of birth.

HoldMyLobster · 27/05/2020 17:30

My grandma who lived through WWII told me once to make sure I always had the same rights to stay in a country that my children have so we could never be separated on the grounds of nationality because a country can change overnight when you least expect it. She also told me to "collect as many passports as you can".

This is the approach I've taken too, as has DH.

His family in particular has had to seek refugee status several times over the generations, and have had many issues with citizenship. We've all learnt the hard way that citizenship is valuable and gives you protection.

Wallywobbles · 27/05/2020 17:32

I've lived 25 years in France and only did anything about getting French naturalized status (so French nationality) when Mumsnet mutterings about passports pre-Brexit put the wind up me. It took the better part of 18 months and cost less than 100€ but was incredibly complicated. Over 3000 pages of documents.

I'm so glad I did it when I did, as its more complicated post-Brexit - but if I'd done as soon as we eligible some 23 years earlier it'd have taken a few weeks!

Brexit has materially changed things for me. The French could have decided that the Brits should leave, or not have rights to healthcare of whatever. My kids were born to a French father and my DH is French. My life is here and now I can vote in general elections, which is ridiculously exciting! Before I could vote for the local mayor but nothing more important.

TheHumansAreDefinitelyDead · 27/05/2020 18:44

@EchidnasPhone there are good FB support groups, and special apps!

I used to spend 30 mins a day doing test questions in an app, for a few weeks

It’s doable

AMostExcellentStick · 27/05/2020 18:56

My grandma who lived through WWII told me once to make sure I always had the same rights to stay in a country that my children have so we could never be separated on the grounds of nationality because a country can change overnight when you least expect it

I agree with this. The world is too unpredictable - or current isolationist and populist politics are all too predictable. DH and I are determined to reach a point where we both have the right to live in the same country - we haven't been too bothered which country that is!

Davros · 27/05/2020 19:22

Ukelele3 I don't know how she got her score. Maybe they just mentioned it when she went to the ceremony. I'll ask her.
if for some reason the UK didn't 'want' me anymore, my family would up and move to my home country. its not always that simple though. I've got friends who thought they could always go "home" but their kids don't want to go, the UK is home to them