How to stop having battles with 7yo DS?

[working5to9]

What would happen in your house is you had this exchange with a 7yo who is an angel at school (well, was before lockdown) but has always been challenging (in my opinion)/ a typical boy (in DH's opinion).
As a Saturday treat, he's allowed a packet of crisps whilst watching TV.
Bedtime comes and our exchange goes like this:
Me: let's tidy up room. If you put the crisp packet in the bin,
I'll do the cushions and put the game away
DS: no
Me: yes. You know you have to help tidy up
DS: I'm not
Me: come on. I've done the cushions already. I've asked you twice now so you need to do it
DS: I'm not going to do it. I've already told it. Can't you hear me. What are you? Deaf? An idiot? What?
Me: That's very rude. You're not allowed to use horrible words like that. Say sorry or you won't get your Sunday morning tablet time tomorrow.
DS (shouting): Why would I say sorry? You must be deaf or an idiot as you wouldn't keep asking me to do it.
At this point, I shout at him to tell him to put the crisp packet in the bin, that he won't get tablet time tomorrow and go to bed. At which point he bursts into tears and tells me he's sorry and begs for tablet time. I say no, he shouts at me again about being an idiot.
This is probably the third or fourth similar exchange we've had today. He'd already missed out on an ice cream and had been sent to his room on the other occasions.
As is obvious from the frequency with which this is happening, my approach isn't working. DH thinks I'm expecting too much (other requests today were around emptying the dishwasher, reading for 15 minutes and bringing some things in from the garden after lunch) and that I'm being too negative. He also thinks I'm ridiculous for being appalled at the language DS uses when he shouts "are you an idiot? Are you deaf/blind/don't you have legs". He only says that to me or his sister (2.5yrs older) but I'm not sure if that is intentional or accidental.
If DH asks DS to do something and DS doesn't want to, DH either just does it himself or turns it into a long game or let's DS do something for 15 mins (like play on his tablet) before doing it. My issue with DH's approach is that half the time DS hasn't done what he was asked to and, when he has done as asked, it's taken hours to get to that stage.
I just don't know what to do but want to do something as it's miserable at the moment. Whilst lockdown is exacerbating it, his behaviour was like this before and we'd have this sort of
"conversation" most days.

Initial thought is what is he watching on his tablet? Ds 5 has gained some choice expressions from Horrid Henry...

I find asking them to rephrase it politely works better than berating the initial wording.

I don't know if there's a "thing" at 7, but my DS(7) is trying it on at being rude quite frequently (lockdown?) and DS1 was so awful that it finally triggered the point of referral for ASD assessment and diagnosis which I put down to the stress of SATs and made him so volatile for about 5 months. Obviously with him there was a long history of clues, but being 7 was the tipping point that the sutiation had become intolerable as it was. A couple of years on and we haven't been that bad since with meltdowns raging for 3 or 4 hours.

Where has he learnt those phrases from? Does your husband talk to you like that?

I don't know where the phrases have come from. It's definitely not something he's heard from home. DH and I have a very calm relationship. But I don't think it's from the programmes he's watching either. I need to do a bit more detective work!
I've wondered about DS and ASD and/or PDA for a while. We paid for him to see an Ed psych last year who assessed him as being entirely average and a pleasant, engaging little boy. If that is the case, then I think he needs to start doing as he's told when he's told (having been given appropriate warnings etc). But I'm worried about being too strict in case there is more going on and he just can't handle these demands so I'm making it worse.

A treat is a packet of crisps on a Saturday jjeezzzzeeee no wonder he's angry

The one thing I’ve learned over the years is that it’s not worth arguing. Kids enjoy the argument. A boring, simple repetition of what you want done - ‘dishwasher please’ - works much better than engaging in a debate about fairness or the way they are speaking to you or whatever else they find to distract you.

Ok, maybe from school or something then? I agree with pp, and just repeat instructions in a boring voice. Although can be easier said than done if he is being awful! I do cut mine a lot of slack, especially during lock down. My 5 year old is doing a lot of stomping and shouting right now, but usually cheers up after a cuddle.

Read The Book You Wish Your Parents Have Read. Say 'I need you to do....' rather than 'you must....'

I’d be really interested to know where those phrases come from too. His older sibling? Personally I would get very very cold as that would be completely unacceptable language from my seven year old. He honestly wouldn’t dare. The worst he says ‘is I hate you’ occasionally and I can’t even remember the last time he said it.

Anyway back to advice re. what you do now? Well the treats and iPad would be completely off the table for the near future. I would make him earn time in the iPad through good behaviour. Set up a reward chart, nothing fancy, but good behaviour earns him time, talking to you like shit and refusing to do as he’s asked loses him time.

We count down from 5 to 0 if my sons in a tantrum and refusing to do the (entirely reasonable) thing we’ve asked him. There are always warnings of what will happen if (he doesn’t release his brother from a head lock) and I stay very very calm.

The most important component in all of this is your husband. He undermines you. Your son sees that what you say doesn’t really hold much weight and so finds it easy to ignore you. Me and me DP parent very effectively together. It’s extremely rare that I go against what he has says and I don’t think he’s ever agreed with what I’ve decided on. So the kids know they can’t play us off against each other and that we won’t tolerate disrespectful behaviour.

Have you read Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph? I don't normally go in for childcare books but this one has some very useful advice. According to Biddulph there is indeed a developmental change at 7 - I definitely noticed it. I think we kind of assume that once kids are beyond toddlerhood/early school age they don't have these big changes that we can put behaviour down to (well, until the dreaded puberty), but they do still happen.

Don't forget that their world is upside down at the moment too so while I've lost my shit once or twice because of rudeness, in general I'm trying to be a bit more relaxed about rules/tidying etc

My first thoughts
I agree the language isn't acceptable
He needs immediate consequences (not tomorrow consequences)
You need to find things to praise him for.

I'm not great at this stuff and I've several years' experience on yours :)

Sometimes you just have to start again and work out how to change the script.

Perhaps you can start with a family discussion in the morning around who is going to help with what tasks? And then make a point of praising tasks that have been done, same deal for every family member so you are modelling this. Do remind him but try to keep this low key. And hopefully get his father on board with whatever approach you end up using.

This is just one possible suggestion! Good luck, sounds tough.

My DS is 8 & would explode in a similar manner if told what he must do in that way (although he would never speak to me like that) - I would ask him “please would you”/“it would be a great help to me if you would” to get the help.

I think you & your DH need to get on the same page though

Another good read is How to talk so kids listen and how to listen so kids talk. It deals with stuff like this really well and has cartoons illustrating an argument vs an alternative outcome. I was cringing within the first few pages remembering times I could have handled things better!

I think the inconsistency between yours and your husband’s approach to requests is a stumbling block. You’ll probably both have to compromise but it sounds like he’s not taking you seriously because his dad is a soft touch and either doesn’t ask him to do things or does but doesn’t really mean it.

I've had very similar exchanges with my DD (7)

I usually ignore the language and concentrate on the behaviour. I think the language is a distraction from the issue.

Kids would rather have an escalating argument than JUST DOING WHAT YOU'VE ASKED!

the behaviour is 'just' kids stuff. Definitely get your husband on board and agree what you expect regarding chores (crisp packet in bin is not a chore btw just family living!) if the kid just refuses. Ask twice with the consequence threat and back it up!

Lockdown is crazy, my kid winds me up on purpose and says 'do I deserve a good ticking' crazy girl!

When she winds me up sometimes I tickle her to calm us both down! We usually end up laughing but then she wants the tickles and winds me up!

Also is it possible he does it on purpose for the interaction?

Good attention is the same as negative attention to some kids. It could have become a game to him and seeing what dad's reaction is. That's part of the 'game'

A treat is a packet of crisps on a Saturday jjeezzzzeeee no wonder he's angry grin
🤣🤣🤣
You and DH need to be a united front, his dad is letting him away with it and you’re the bad guy.

I would certainly try to reframe things to avoid conflict at all costs. Such as, I know you are a good boy who'll put that in the bin (even offer him 5 mins extra tablet time rather than taking it away), if he still refuses don't go straight for the response that will cause an immediate blow up from him . Phrase it like 'we're going to have to think about tablet time tomorrow if you won't help mummy'. As for the rude language you need to challenge him on this, sit him down at a calm moment and ask him if he knows it's not nice, and why he says these things, and at THAT point let him know then consequences and get him to agree to them.
A lot of this is lockdown behaviour, I'm sure of it. Our kids can't handle it either; it just comes out in different ways, anger, defiance, tears etc.
You are doing a good job. X

Oh I could so have written this about my 8yo! Currently awaiting assessment for asd and I think pda is likely part of it. All is fine until he hears something he doesn't like or is asked to do something he doesn't want to do. The backchat!! It really presses my buttons too op and lockdown is making everything ten times worse. I ended up in tears yesterday

I do think that at the moment their little worlds are upside down, and my ds doesn't cope at all well with unpredictability. So it's coming out as anger and confusion and we're copping it. And I have a similar problem with a soft touch dad... Although we're not together so it's harder to moderate that. I just get used to being bad cop...

Giving warning of expectations helps too.
E.g. after dinner, you will need to clear your plate away.

That way you don't have to battle the shock factor (so much...)

You say your approach isn't working, so maybe it's time to try something else. Have you read Ross Greene's 'The Explosive Child'? It might help. Basically, he advises focusing not on the child's behaviour, but on what's causing the behaviour...and trying to figure out any lagging skills and unsolved problems collaboratively.
The traditional parenting techniques of timeouts/reward charts etc never worked for my eldest- they made everything much worse; eventually we stumbled our way to an approach like the one Dr Greene recommends. It can help to think of the out-of-control incidents not as bad behaviour as such, but as an indication that your child may be overwhelmed by the demands placed on him at the time. You say you're wondering if this may be the case yourself, so yes, I'd look at it more closely and work together on solutions.
A child doesn't have to have additional needs to benefit from this approach, but for a child like mine who does have extra needs it makes a huge difference. Good luck OP.

No way should a 7 year old be saying those things to anyone never mind their parent!

@lovinlavidaloca
@justanotherneighinparadise
I just think you've been lucky with your experience of children to be able to hold that opinion. Some children's journeys are more challenging.

I already have How To Talk So Kids Will Listen etc, The Explosive Child, Raising Boys on the bookshelf and have read them all before although none for a year or so.
I started How to Talk again last night and my issue with it is that DS never gets to that point of self reflection and realisation of what the problem is. His first response to anything is "it's not my fault" and he seems completely unable to appreciate or accept the part his role has to play in anything. At school he sticks to rules to the extreme, tells on people who don't and seems to like the idea of the common good and how everyone needs to do their part. At home, he just wants to be a dictator with the rest of us running around after him. Why should he clear up his crisp packet, help clear the table, tidy up the board game we have all played, get himself a drink of water etc? Why can't we (particularly me) do all of this for him?

On a lighter note, I agree about the crisps. The normal rule is no food in the sitting room and the children bizarrely see the relaxation of this as wildly exciting. I'm quite glad of it as, when we can't go out and they're already having hours of screen time, what I can offer as a treat is very limited.

@working5to9 my ds also seems unable or refuses to engage in any talking about the issues, and is pretty much okay at school frustratingly.

One thing which might help is having house rules that you all agree on together. Then when you say things, it's not you saying it but the rules? Like we clear up after ourselves, or we don't shout at each other (I'd fail that one multiple times a day at the moment) it does sound quite pda in presentation though.

Maybe have a re-read of 'The Explosive Child' too OP . It might really help you to work towards identifying why he's behaving the way he is. Children tend to behave appropriately if they can, and if they have the relevant skills to allow them to do so. You'll probably be able to predict trigger points that set off arguments too. And try not to shout at him yourself, it's very stressful for you both and not helping. I know it's hard, take care.