Why is horse riding/dressage acceptable, but Circus animals aren't? not

[00100001]

I was just wondering why we celebrate horse riding and even have performing horses in the Olympics. But to go to an animal circus is frowned upon?

Just to be clear, I don't think there should be horse racing or performance animals in the Olympics!

Am I missing something?

Some horses have a better life as a result of being kept to be ridden or driven etc., some don't.

I have a pony that was born on the New Forest so spent the first few years of her life free to roam. She survived the traffic, which kills over a hundred every year.

She is now ridden by me. She lives out in fields that are in the New Forest but with free access to much better shelter than just trees. She gets hoof care (she isn't shod) and is vaccinated and would have access to veterinary care should that ever be needed. She lives with a group of horses in large paddocks. She appears happy, but I can't know for sure which life she prefers. I do know she opts for the shelters rather than the copious number of trees available for shelter. I also know she can't wander as far.

There are plenty of horses that don't have a good life and are stuck in stables etc. for far too long.

Equally that applies to lots of domesticated animals. I appreciate plenty of people don't agree with pets either. Where it works it is mutually beneficial.

I have had horses, they were very well looked after and only asked to do something they didn’t want to if it was for their own good
However, I hate horse racing, horses run like that because they are basically prey animals so it’s their instinct to run in a herd for safety. It’s that instinct that’s being exploited in horse racing
That and various unsavoury practices in the industry mean I hate it

I have always wondered about dressage.

Can someone tell me what is the point of these poor horses practising for years we are told? To do what? Something so unnatural that it is hard to think of anything more unnatural. Except to sit down and have a cup of tea maybe.

With jumping you can at least see that they would do that in the wild.

But dressage - it looks stupid. Looks so cruel. So pointless.

Please someone come on and tell me why people make them do it.

Of course dressage isn't cruel!

Dogs don't walk on leads or play with balls in the wild, is that cruel? Horses are domesticated by the way.

As the child of someone who kept horses I can tell you, they got treated better than DSis and I. Most people who own horses devote their whole lives to them. They're pampered. And if you've ever owned or worked with dressage horses you would know they're happy doing it.

I always think the same thing, OP. I used to ride myself but I've become more and more uncomfortable with the whole idea of it. My NDN has 3 horses that she keeps for dressage; the poor things stand in their stables all day; the only time they get to come out is to go into the manège to go round and round in circles. I just find that it's such a sad and boring life for them. Admittedly, not all horses are kept like this but in her case, I really do think it's an abuse of animals.

I suppose though, as with everything, you become conditioned by your early life experience into what you find acceptable and what you don't. There is no logical reason why we accept one and not the other. Likewise with eating lambs or eating puppies. There's no difference really. Also that documentary on Netflix about the tigerman; lots of people on social media ranting about how it's cruel that he removes the cubs from their mother and yet we do this all the time with baby cows so that we can drink the mother's milk. It's heratbreaking when you see it first hand. Mother cows grieve in the same way that human mothers would grieve if their baby was removed from them. People will justify this by saying it's for food but we really don't need to drink the milk of a cow; it's utterly bizarre when you actually think about it. But we've been conditioned to just accept it. It's so unnecessary especially when plant milk is just as nice and more sustainable from an environmental point of view.

especially when plant milk is just as nice I'm afraid you've lost me there.

😂 ok, well I suppose taste is subjective but in all honesty I used to love milk and thought I'd never be able to give it up but if you get the right brand of oat milk- Oatly- it's just the same but a bit creamier. Eveb my dh, who uses to be a farmer, prefers oatmilk and he's a big meat eater. I'm not vegan but I'm heading that way and I've been really surprised by how good the milk is. Cheese, on the other hand, now that's a different matter...

I actually don't think it's that much different if the circus horses are week treated and have a proper set up with full size temporary stables wherever they go. It's certainly not comparable to using tigers or elephants. Some show horses ponies spend all summer on the road between shows. Everyone assumes horse racing is the worst but they are frequently treated far better than dressage/show ponies, their performance depends on it. They need to be able to run relaxed and freely. Dressage and showing can rely on some pretty barbaric treatment treatments/techniques for some.

Can someone tell me what is the point of these poor horses practising for years we are told? To do what? Something so unnatural that it is hard to think of anything more unnatural. Except to sit down and have a cup of tea maybe

Wellllllllllll technically a long long time ago it started out as watching horses natural movements at play or showing off sort of thing, it was about emulating that movement under saddle, so often the best horses were selected, for their natural nimble ability. These were useful horses for riders in battle, to be able to side step, leap, rear out of trouble or to put the rider in a better position to fight..... napoleon's portrait of him riding rearing horse ect...

Over the centuries some of these movements morphed in to the dressage that you see today, its suppose to be the ultimate in horse and Rider unity Haha hahaa

It is far far removed from its origin in style, grace and training now.

I'm not saying this to justify it, or the ethics of using horses in battle. But just to answer a question. My brief history lesson could easily be pulled apart by another horsey person. But it's just a short explanation though.

*Can someone tell me what is the point of these poor horses practising for years we are told? To do what? Something so unnatural that it is hard to think of anything more unnatural. Except to sit down and have a cup of tea maybe.

With jumping you can at least see that they would do that in the wild.*

Actually horses in the wild don't choose to jump, they certainly don't jump for fun and will usually go around an obstacle if it's a possibility.

Classical dressage is all about moving with the horse not against it, it's based on thousands of years ago as pp said, studying horses natural movements and working with them for battle and later for the art of classical riding in the likes of the Spanish riding schools. Modern day dressage is very different and lots of people get it very wrong. There are some very cruel techniques but some of these are far less common in the UK and certainly banned in any competition here.

Neither is acceptable.

@AnnaFiveTowns you’re very right about the cows. If you want help to go vegan (recipes, meal plans, product suggestions etc) this helps a lot of people challenge22.com/

You can be as ideological as you like, but the simple truth is that dd and I have just come back frim turning our horses out for the day. They are happy, calm, well fed animals who know how to behave kindly around humans. They've been an absolute tonic during this time, to both mine and dds mental health. Like all good relationships with animals, its a two way street.

Interesting responses.

So, in theory if a Circus/performing horse was very well cared for, it would be perfectly acceptable to go and see it do it's show?

Yes. The Spanish Lipizzaners for example.

I don't see why not - unless you are against horse riding as a sport in all forms. I don't see how it's any more different to any other discipline such as racing/ showing/showjumping where horses travel and perform.

Dressage, as far as I know, seems to be horses that are trained to do things which are not natural to them, and is seen as a form of entertainment. Not much different from circus animals in some respects

@NewYearNewTwatName and @midnightstar66 thank you so much for answering my question - I have always wondered!

Although it appears then that some movements do originate from natural movements, teaching them routines etc could in no way be argued to be a natural thing for them to do. I still think it is extremely cruel and am saddened that you say so yourself that some people do use cruel techniques.

Surely it's one thing, them moving a simple nimble side step in their everyday life, and very different to them learning a whole routine? I find it upsetting.

My dd teaches her horse dressage tests. They are pretty rudimentary affairs. Both horse and dd seem to like it though.

you don't tend to see circus tigers, elephants being taken for walks! How could you do that?

The elephants from Blackpool Tower Circus used to be taken for walks on the beach. They even went swimming.

Slightly off topic but was mentioned above briefly - Oatley barista is utterly gorgeous. I never thought that I would find a replacement for cow milk but it is delicious. I cannot have anything with cow milk in now as it tastes appalling to me.

Dressage is based on natural movements horses make when they are being playful, excited, showing off to a prospective mate, etc. My 5yo will passage at liberty in the field when greeting another horse (the slow, elevated trot that advanced dressage horses do).

He won’t be asked to do this under saddle for several years because it takes time to develop the strength, suppleness and understanding for the horse to perform the movement ridden. At the moment (before lock-down) his ridden work is focused on making sure he is relaxed, comfortable and interested. Relaxation is the first step on the dressage scales of training, which is why even at the highest levels dressage horses are asked to demonstrate a free walk on a long rein.

Not all horses are suited to dressage, but many will oblige once they understand they are being invited to show off and be playful. Horses are very social animals and generally happy to interact with people.

I don’t really know enough about circus life to judge if horses can be well kept in that environment. If they are fed, watered, have plenty of time turned out and can interact with other horses, I don’t see much harm in them spending a bit of time in their day learning tricks or whatever, if they’re taught without force.

Sorry - rhythm and relaxation are the first steps on the dressage scales of training, and the two go hand in hand. Just to correct myself for any real dressage experts reading this.

I have a horse who I compete to a reasonable level in eventing and she’s schooled to high level of dressage. We couldn’t put an Olympic level dressage test together yet but I’ve trained her to do most of the ‘moves’.

I can’t speak for other animals, but horses generally enjoy working. Mine is much more relaxed and happier after she’s worked. I genuinely wonder if it’s endorphins?

My training methods aren’t cruel, it’s based on mutual understanding really. The aim of dressage is fluidity, balance and grace really and you aren’t going to get any of that without a relaxed (and therefore happy) horse.

Mine have always been kept like royalty, plenty of time out in the field to be a horse, competitions are usually 1 day trips - occasional stay away ones but they are rare once or twice a year events - which is a world away from circus animals on the road.
I would say it is the same for the vast majority of competition horses. They are generally adored and waited on hand and foot.