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Original poster

What are my mum’s rights

44 replies

Carehomedilemma · 09/03/2020 15:09

Hello

Does anyone know the legal position if somebody with dementia currently resident in a care home wants to return home. Can the LA refuse to discharge the person concerned and if so can they legally force them to stay in care.

My mother is currently in care and she has expressed that she would like to return home, I am trying to help her and looking at private care at home but my siblings think this is a bad idea as do the LA- what can I do which will avoid conflict? I don’t want to pursue the legal route but if there is one does anyone know what the legal position is please. Is there any way of coming to a resolution outside of court.

Of course there is a lot more in terms of the background to this but for now can anyone advise on where the law stands generally.

Thank you

OP posts:
Original poster
Carehomedilemma · 09/03/2020 15:10

rehomedilemma

Hello

Does anyone know the legal position if somebody with dementia currently resident in a care home wants to return home. Can the LA refuse to discharge the person concerned and if so can they legally force them to stay in care.

My mother is currently in care and she has expressed that she would like to return home, I am trying to help her and looking at private care at home but my siblings think this is a bad idea as do the LA- what can I do which will avoid conflict? I don’t want to pursue the legal route but if there is one does anyone know what the legal position is please. Is there any way of coming to a resolution outside of court.

Of course there is a lot more in terms of the background to this but for now can anyone advise on where the law stands generally.
Thank you

OP posts:
Selfsettling3 · 09/03/2020 15:11

Can she/you afford round the clock care for her?
Maybe start with contacting age concern.

GulliBelle · 09/03/2020 15:14

It would depend very much on her mental capacity; Google mental capacity for guidance.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Care homes Dementia & alzheimer's
EineReiseDurchDieZeit · 09/03/2020 15:21

It depends on whether she has been placed on a Deprivation Of Liberty Order

www.scie.org.uk/mca/dols/at-a-glance

Twelveroses · 09/03/2020 15:22

Depends if she has capacity, surely? Capacity is situation-specific so would be assessed in relation to this particular decision. I'd suggest you take advice from a solicitor.

Purplewithred · 09/03/2020 15:22

As Gullibelle says, does she have capacity to make that decision for herself?

If the LA are funding residential care for her it will only be because they don't think she can manage at home safely with the kind of care package they could put together for her (ie x visits a day). They won't fund live-in care in your own home. Does she still have a home to return to?

Do you think she can be safe at home?

LanieM87 · 09/03/2020 15:24

If she has capacity to make an informed decision about returning home - then absolutely she cannot be stopped and the LA should then support the discharge home regardless of if they support it.

If she does not have capacity to make that decision herself, then it is likely that she will remain in care unless there is a very strong best interest decision to oppose this.

Soontobe60 · 09/03/2020 15:25

If she has been assessed as no longer having capacity, and you have POA, you can act on her behalf. If she is self funded, then it is likely to cost upwards of £2k a week to find full time care. She can claim attendance allowance but that’s not much.

Blackbear19 · 09/03/2020 15:33

If LA are paying for a care home, she must need it. Be very careful about rejecting the help you have. May not be that easy to get it back at a later date.

Before you decide to think about taking her home be 100% certain what the later stages of dementia involve, double incontinence, spoon fed etc.

Read up on it, speak to the staff, ask their opinions know that it is only going to get worse. You are dealing with a terminal illness. Which will need 24hr / 7 days a week / 52 weeks a year care.

You also have to remember that not matter where she actually is "home" in her head could be her mother's house, with her parents and siblings. Which simply is not going to happen.

HazelBite · 09/03/2020 15:46

Think very carefully about this.
My Dsis is in a care home and desperately wants to go home. Her mental capacity "fluctulates" and sometimes she can answer all the questions that are asked of her and sometimes she talks a load of nonsense but the truth is she has no sound judgement. Dsis has my Dbil at home who used to look after her with the help of carers but it is not the same as full time care as she gets in the home.
D bil kept going as long as he could but at home if he took his eyes off her for a minute or the carer did the truble would start she was a danger to herself.
There is far more general security in the home and the staff there have the expertise to deal with people with these problems and do not have that 24/7 a full time carer would have. At a very basic level they can go to the loo knowing there is someone at hand to keep an eye out.
The other thing is that in a home the staff there are very familiar to the resident whereas a carer in the home can be changed at the last minute, on occasions which can be very unsettling for the patient.
This is something you should be discussing with your siblings, your Mother if she doesn't have the full mental capacity is only following her heart and her emotional response is to go home but you really have to look at the bigger picture, and the fact her condition is not going to get any better.

Original poster
Carehomedilemma · 10/03/2020 10:11

Thank you all for your replies. I’m feeling very overwhelmed by the whole situation.

I understand a lot is dependant on my mum’s mental capacity however, she has clearly expressed in the past and during my every visit with her that she does not wish to be there and would like to end her days in her own home. She does have her own home to return to.

She has had trial visits home and these have been successful so far. I appreciate this could could change at any given time because of her illness.

If she decided to leave could she be stopped by the LA? They have spoken to me and have stated they will not be reinstating the previous care package they had provided and that that they may take legal action. It is this latter point especially that worries me as I have found a private career to visit her 3x a day.

I know someone said to speak to a solicitor and I will as soon as I get a chance but I wondered does anyone know what grounds the LA could take legal action on especially given my mum’s express desire both past and present to return home? She for now does have the capacity to make this decision.

I do not want to make an already awkward and sensitive situation worse but feel that my mum’s views do need to be taken into account and at the moment it feels as though they are being ignored.

OP posts:
Sugarplumfairy65 · 10/03/2020 11:01

If you do move your mum back into her own home, 3 visits per day will not be enough once the disease progresses. She will need 24hr care which the LA have already said they won't provide. Could your mother afford live in care?
What prompted the move to the care home? Do you have POA?

Iliketeaagain · 10/03/2020 11:16

I would ask for a formal capacity assessment to be done (again?) about her wanting to go home. I'm sure you know that it's not just about her her ability to express her wishes, but also about her capacity to retain, understand and weigh up the risks of managing at home on her own with 3 care visits per day and her ability to summon help quickly if needed.

IME residential care. Is normally the last resort. Are you in the position to step in and do 24 hour care if things take a turn for the worse?

Blackbear19 · 10/03/2020 11:25

OP you really do need to fully understand what the future holds for her, you and the entire family.

If your mum was capable of living at home with carers she would still be there. There is a point when it is no longer safe for her to live at home.

Private care company may well say "Yes that's fine" but when it comes to it you 'all realise that 3x a day isn't enough.

Dementia patients can become like adult size toddlers. They need 24hr supervision. Leaving gas on,
Nipping out to Woolies, getting upset when they can't find it.(you know all those appeals for elderly missing people)
3 o'clock great time to go out. Is that night or morning?
Putting clothes on, or on top of night clothes, forgetting to wash.

The list is endless. It will become a 24hr job.

I'd maybe suggest you take her home for a weekend at a serious push. She may not even recognize it as hers, depending on how long it was her home.

But think very carefully before you go upsetting the people who've tried to help. She'd become 100% your responsibility. Any accidents or incidents the LA have no responsibility for, you rejected the package offered.

CrotchetyQuaver · 10/03/2020 11:35

I really wouldn't recommend bringing her home without 24 hr support. My mother is in the late stages of vascular dementia. Double incontinent, spoon fed, hoisted everywhere. 3 carer visits a day just wouldn't cut it. Far too dangerous. I wouldn't treat one of my pets like that. Do you have POA?

Sounds like you need to have a think about what's in your mother's best interests, rather than what she wants to happen.

Christmadtree · 10/03/2020 11:48

Sorry OP but asking to go home is very very common for people with dementia, but often home could be their childhood home in their mind. Soon they may start asking for dead relatives, especially mum as the disease progresses. Its heartbreaking and relentless, but this is the disease. Even if they do seem to know and remember their own home now, that won't be the case for long.

It's a horrible disease and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but I think you need to realise the situation. Perhaps visit someone at the later stages of the disease so you know what to expect. It isn't just a bit of forgetfulness.

Best tactic I found was to redirect the conversation or agree but say you'll go after lunch or dinner or whatever, until they forget and ask again. To explain over and over that they can't go home or that their mum/partner etc is dead, is just forcing them to relive the grief and anger over and over again and is a miserable existence for them. It's horrible lying but it's for their own good iyswim.

Blackbear19 · 10/03/2020 11:53

CrotchetyQuaver really sorry you and your poor mum are going through that stage. The most degrading thing I have ever witness is a Gran parent who went though it Flowers.

armsandtheman · 10/03/2020 12:34

I had done training from a specialist in speech therapy that suggested asking for home was often a sign that people with dementia were asking to be reassured they are safe. You could try gentle reassurance and a hug/hand hold to see if that helps at all.

Sorry you're going through this. It's a cruel disease

cptartapp · 10/03/2020 12:42

She's at the stage where her needs override her wants. Today is the best she will ever be. It's unlikely three career visits a day will be enough, not in the long term anyway. She'd be extremely vulnerable.
Her safety is paramount. Keep this at the forefront of your mind. It's sad, but the reality of dementia.

WeAllHaveWings · 10/03/2020 12:53

Is a private carer visiting 3 times a day sufficient to keep them safe? For someone with advanced dementia I would think they need 24/7 care.

24/7 care is needed to ensure they are safe, do eat, drink, take medication, stay clean, don't leave the house unaccompanied, have support and comfort if they get scared or agitated, have someone on hand if they fall or become unwell.

Even if you are they every evening and overnight, 3 visits during the day is not sufficient.

RoxytheRexy · 10/03/2020 13:22

If you repost this in the Elderly Parents section as well as they are some very knowledgeable and helpful posters there.

Would x 3 visits a day be sufficient? Are you local to your Mum? How did she end up in residential care if she could manage at home?

Think very carefully about moving her. My DF had dementia and definitely needed 24 hour care for about 6 months before he died. It was very difficult

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 10/03/2020 13:27

Please be aware that the sort of 24/7 care (or at least someone on duty) 24/7). which a person with dementia usually needs sooner or later, will almost certainly be more expensive than a care home. It will often mean more than one person on shifts, to allow for breaks and time off.

This will especially be the case if the person is up and down, calling out, etc. at night.

It’s terribly common for people with dm

PineappleDanish · 10/03/2020 13:28

Agree - it all depends on capacity. A relative of mine who has quite advanced dementia has been sectioned because he simply doesn't have the capacity to make the right decisions to keep himself safe.

Does she have a social worker?

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 10/03/2020 13:34

Sorry, will continue...
...for people with dementia to say they want to go home, esp. in the early weeks or months at a care home. My own mother did, because she genuinely had no idea that she wasn’t safe to be left alone at all any more, and could no longer even make herself a cup of tea.

There often comes a time when the person’s needs will have to take precedence over their wishes. Yes, it’s sad, and nobody likes it, but dementia is a beast and all too often there are simply no easy answers.

HappyHammy · 10/03/2020 13:34

She needs a capacity assessment to know if she understands the risks of going home and agreeing to let carers in. If they are thinking of legal advice maybe they dont think she will be safe and is too vulnerable plus you need to know if she is on a DOLS. If she is nearing the end of her life then the community palliative team can get involved.