Does anyone have experience of hypernumeracy?

[Vallderama]

I was googling about kids with innate maths abilities and autistic traits this evening and came across this observed pattern which matches ds14 exactly. He's always had a huge facility with maths and since yr 1 at school physics also, classed as gifted, put forward for extra programmes, doing the GCSE early etc. However he struggled a lot socially when younger and had a couple of physical markers typical of autism too, but never enough to quite add up to a diagnosis. He's still a quirky individualistic thinker but now is happy with himself being like that. the autistic traits have calmed down a lot and are not problematic but the fascination with numbers and physics remains. He just sees numbers in a different way to how other people do.

I was ofc aware of all the rainman type clichés but actually it appears that other parents have observed similar patterns in their children, and it is a legitimate "thing", but there doesn't appear to be a lot of information about it on the internet.

So I thought I'd ask if anyone on Mumsnet has experience of this. Honestly when I read about it, it was like a lightbulb going off in my head. That this is absolutely ds.

I had a friend who could take two 3 figure numbers and multiply them in his head. He would say the answer left to right (so the opposite of how you would calculate it)

I had a friend who could take two 3 figure numbers and multiply them in his head

My husband can do that. He has a 3D number line in his head - I think it's a form of synesthesia.

Do you remember what he was like at 3/4? I sometimes wonder if DS1s maths ability/interest in science is a little unusual but you can't really ask your RL friends 'what maths can your 3 year old do?' without sounding like a twit.

Yes, I can broadly remember. He'd already been talking about numbers a lot by then and also building big elaborate structures with his duplo and bricks and lining things up, adding to the line and taking away from it. All directed by him. When I played these "games" with him, my job was just to put bricks etc where they should be according to whatever plan he had in his head. I did try putting Playmobil people into these mad scenes and getting stories going around them which he kind of went along with to humour me, always calling them his name and his friend's name and saying they were going to the park and that was it for the story, back to building. So that started at around two. He was adding and subtracting in the abstract by three, also telling the time from an analogue clock. At four he told me what all the numbers from 1-100 added up to and was multiplying. I don't remember the exact trajectory of multiplication but he was secure in it and multiplying 3 digit numbers by reception. It was also in reception that he asked me if I saw shapes and colours moving when I did maths, because he did.

At the same time there were little flickers of autism traits - he completely lost the plot one day when his childminder was ill and I tried to drop him at breakfast club instead. I mean, he just became a whirlwind of distress and panic. Same thing happened one morning in reception when he didn't have a sweatshirt on (it was warm enough). But it didn't happen all the time, and he was happy and making friends.

DH was like this as a child. He remembers always being like that, it's just part of who he is.

He's an actuary now.

DH can do incredibly complex calculations in his head and remember mathematical equations to a ridiculous extent. When his colleagues get bored they start flinging sums at him to see how fast he can answer. Did physics and astrophysics as a degree - and now works in a very IT/numeracy based job.

I believe these days as a child he'd be diagnosed on the autistic spectrum to be honest.

He is, however, banned from helping the kids with maths homework as he's shite at explaining things and just gets pissed off that you can't just instantly comprehend that this x this = this!

That sounds like synaesthesia, I have a much less useful type unfortunately!

Thanks Vallderama DS also does the elaborate structures (with brio mainly, complete with bridges, passing loops and points) but his maths sounds more normal for his age (simple addition, multiplying the odd single digit, counting in 10s etc)

I'm not worried about autism, just we have several engineers across various generations of my family (that I don't think he's met) so it's interesting how he seems to have the family maths/building things 'gene' too.

My son is hyperlexic. He taught himself to read. He’s still awaiting an autism diagnosis but he definitely is.

In my experience these kids are always autistic. Have you considered starting the diagnostic process now he’s older OP? Personally, I’d always rather have the diagnosis than not have it.

This is all really interesting hearing about others - thank you! Ds wants to study applied maths and I think he'll go into a mathsy/ sciencey field. Yes definitely synaesthesia which I have to a certain extent with some words. He also sees numbers as constantly interacting and relating and forming patterns that he remembers intricately. Like the details of a person's life. So for example he'll remember a string of 1000 numbers (for pi Day competition) and he does it by remembering past interactions with them.

He is, however, banned from helping the kids with maths homework as he's shite at explaining things and just gets pissed off that you can't just instantly comprehend that this x this = this!
DS used to be fairly good at arithmetic-type Maths and could jump to the answer. Trouble was, I was forever telling him that nobody really cared about the answer; what they wanted to know was how he got there. I was forever saying "show your workings!"

We didn't get him assessed, no, although teetered on the edge a few times. He had a couple of occasions when he flew into a rage and shut himself in his room after my dad made weak teasing dad joke type remarks, because he was very literal. But that had all stopped by age eight. I don't think he'd fit the criteria now because he's not impaired. He's actually very good socially, really very adept, and although he likes to go on and on about future plans he is also now adaptable in a regular way.

With respect OP, autistic people can be social! They can give good eye contact, and they can be empathetic too. Not fitting into the widely known (and quite inaccurate) stereotypes doesn’t mean that someone can’t be autistic.

I am most likely autistic. I didn’t need any support at school. Looking back though, I think I would have appreciated knowing at a much younger age (I’m nearly 40). It’s rough when you go through life always feeling out of step with everyone else, being rejected by peers because you’re weird and a geek and blah blah blah. I used to think that I was a failure and if I’d only tried hard enough to fit in and be likeable. Now I know it isn’t my fault, it’s my wiring

Anyway, it’s something to consider for the future. Lots of people (my husband included) believe that if an autistic person can “pass” as NT then you shouldn’t get a label. I don’t agree.

My brother in law was like this as a child with the numeracy skills and is also an actuary now.

That sounds like synaesthesia,

My mathy DD is synaesthetic with numbers, I remember before she was 2 she used to assign numbers to all of the people she met. She has colours for numbers but also has objects she thinks of as numbers as well. She’s naturally very good at maths and can be intense but she isn’t autistic.

@Haworthia I've suspected my DS(9) has hyperlexia since he taught himself to read at an incredibly young age and he has his ASD assessment next week! I do think there's a strong possibility of a link. DS has sensory issues and tics as well, he's doing really well academically, not so well emotionally and socially but his school are brilliant with supporting him and have really helped push for a diagnosis.

@Vallderama, have you searched for hypercalculia? There seems to be a bit more info on it than hyper numeracy.

My youngest ds is 4, has an autism diagnosis and his maths skills are insane! Knows numbers beyond million/trillion, can work in minus numbers, power of 10 etc He was a late talker and counting to 10 was the first thing he said/did! He taught himself to read just before he turned 3, and is also fascinated with space, knows all the planets moons, distance from sun etc. I suppose maths and science are easier for asd kids to grasp as they don't change. I've not looked into it any further as he is only in preschool, and he is very behind in social/personsal/emotional skills so mainly focus on that. My eldest is also autistic, he was good at maths when younger but hates it now even they he is still good at it. He doesn't have any support at school and does quite well, just struggles now and then socially and is very anxious all the time.

@TheCunkOfPhilomena Glad to hear the school have been supportive. My boy starts Receptoon in September and I’m so worried for him. Academically he’ll be fine, but like you say, socially/emotionally/behaviourally he’ll have problems. He’s summer born and I’ve already held him back a year, so he has to go to school this year, I just don’t want him to!

I married into a family of engineering/ technical types and I think I know where DS's ASD genes came from... I'd put money on two very geeky uncles for a start

DS is all about maths/ science/ engineering and is better than me in some areas now (alas my grade C GCSE maths was my weakest and maths and I parted company when random letters of the alphabet got involved. I also lose numbers doing mental artithmetic and jump or repeat stages)

At 5 we went on a cable car... Two months later he built a working model of it! At 4, he'd sit and Lego for hours without a break until forced to come off. I dreaded the words "play with me" as I failed to telepathically build the model perfectly, and it always ended in strops and tears, normally from us both He was well in to school before he really played with others rather than tolerating them playing alongside him as long as they weren't too inept...

With maths, he understands it easily (although his dyslexia is a hinderence to specific skills such as times tables). His idea of light dinner table conversation is maths puzzles 🤯
The plus side is that DS2 is also naturally inclined to maths too and benefits from all the mind-numbing conversations

I can't 'do' maths if I sit down and think about it, but I can instantly add or subtract numbers in my head and just know the answer. There is no calculation per se, i just 'see' the right answer in my mind. I can do ti with percentages also. But I was a total failure at maths, and can't help my primary aschool aged Dcs for toffee.

DS1 is diagnosed as being autistic and he is the same. Yet if you ask him to write even the most simple of sums on the paper he meltsdown.

TheCunk DS1 also has sensory issues and tics. He has verbal and physical tics.

Gosh, it is 'nice' to hear of others like this, if you know what I mean. I have been so worried about him.

All sounds so familar My eldest son,now 8, could count up to 100 before he understood to call me 'Mummy'..until he was 5 I was called 'Lady'

He has a diagnosis of HFA (I was told Aspergers, but that it was no longer classified as that) .He was besotted with numbers, it was actually a bit worrying at the time watching him line up 1-20 puzzles 20x a day..but weirdly, the fascination ended.

He is at a mainstream school now with great grades and behaviour - but more interestingly, he is stronger in Literacy, reading comprehension,music, art etc. He is still considered 'advanced' in his maths skills, but the passion has gone IYKWIM.

He is much more socially aware and empathetic too..he is all round an awesome dude,I couldn't be prouder

I was diagnosed as autistic aged 40. I did Maths, Further Maths and Physics as 3 of my A levels but don't think I think like your DS does. But I would like to ask you to reconsider a diagnosis. My issues only really became apparent after I left university and was expected to fit and conform into a workplace. Maybe your DS will find his niche but my confidence was severely dented and I ended up with mental health issues and in the mental health system before I finally diagnosed myself and got referred for an assessment.

Being autistic isn't necessarily a problem but being different and not knowing why really can be. My life has tuned out ok and I'm back at work full time but that's via unemployment and benefits and considerable stress and anxiety. I really wish I'd known as a child. I think my life could've been so much better.

I'm finding this very interesting and would love to talk to my oldest DD about it. I'm not sure she has hypernumeracy, but a lot of the things people are saying here are ringing true.

She's now at a fairly rigorous US college and has decided not to major in maths. She's considering focusing on computer science because she finds it so easy, but I suspect she'd find actuarial science enjoyable too. She also considered computational biology.

She is very social, but she does struggle with empathy, and as a side note she has always had a lot of ticks. I've suspected ADHD for quite a while but she refuses to go through any diagnosis procedure.