Current campaign to stop abortion of Down’s syndrome after 24 weeks scares me *Content Warning edited by MNHQ*

[olivehater]

It’s seems to be gaining traction and support on social media. It terrifies my that women’s rights to autonomy over their own bodies could be eroded over so called discrimination of the disabled. Where does it end? Down’s syndrome is just one of Many anomalies picked up in screening tests. Why should it be singled out?
Women should be able to make their own choices as they will be the ones left raising these babies. I don’t think it will be entertained but it is worrying all the same the support it has on social media.

@rhowton it doesn't make you selfish and horrendous, it makes you honest and realistic.

Terminating a fully formed baby is not going to solve a serious mental health issue. I don't believe anyone that has such a serious mental health issue that they'd be ok with terminating their pregnancy very late on would manage to go to all their appointments and it not be picked up on.

Absolute bollocks.

A) Severe MH problems do not always effect every level of functioning

B) If you are extremely unwell and are in a MH inpatient ward they will make damn sure you get to your antenatal appointments

The language on this thread says everything about society’s view of the disabled and how the disabled are a long way off being considered to be equal members of society.

People talking about how they “wouldn’t inflict a disabled child on my family,”

Inflict? Really?

Or how if they gave birth to a disabled child “of course it would be loved and cared for,” it’s not a fucking dog it’s a child.

The media has a lot to answer for in rose tinting Down's syndrome . My son goes to a sn school and although some of the children with Down's are able some are very affected , being non verbal , in nappies and aggressive . Unless you have lived this life you have no right to comment on the difficulties of having a child like this . I'm 'lucky ' my son is none of those things but it's still a very challenging life and certainly not one I would have chosen . Whilst the children are cute when they are young , when they are 20 with the strength of 10 men and the brain of a child plus hormones it's a very worrying prospect .
As an aside there are a million different genetic issues that can be screened for ( and a lot that can't) why oh why do they always pick Down's syndrome !! 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

...at 37 weeks she decides that she wants to have a termination after all. So she is booked in for the termination to take place. However, the night before she is due to go in she goes into premature labour and the baby arrives quickly. Would you say that it should be ok to kill it given it was going to be terminated the next day anyway?

Well, that’s the crux of it, isn’t it @AlternativePerspective ? What makes one a foetus, the other a baby? What if they left the umbilical cord attached after the premature labour? Would that work?

Abortion per se is complex morally, and there’s no ‘right’ time limit. We draw arbitrary lines. For anyone interested, Philip K Dick (yes, Bladerunner, etc) wrote a short story called The Pre-Persons about post-birth abortion. In this, the arbitrary time limit is around 12 years old. PDFs are available free online. Made me think.

Regarding abortion for disability, I see why these objections have been raised - because we don’t condone abortions for sex or race. So some people are more equal than others? But on the other hand, raising a child with certain disabilities is hard.

So maybe equalising the abortion limit is the ‘best’ compromise?

@AlternativePerspective wether you like it or not a disabled child has the potential to have a negative affect on siblings lives.

It could mean multiple hospital trips. Restrictions on activities and travel. Less attention. And the potential that the parents will have to care for the child for the rest of their lives and then that burden falls to the siblings.

It's not something I would chance if avoidable. And fortunately we have choices.

As an aside there are a million different genetic issues that can be screened for ( and a lot that can't) why oh why do they always pick Down's syndrome !! 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

I agree. There are far worse genetic conditions that need to be considered and unless you know what that you need tested for them won’t be picked up until a 20 week scan.

My dd has the most common genetic condition after DS and is lucky to be classed as mildly affected as she survived birth and didn’t die shortly after. She’s nearly 18 and has very little independence and required a huge amount of treatment as a child.

If you’re going to campaign for women to stop having terminations because the child they are carrying has a serious condition, I hope you’re also campaigning to increase financial and practical support too.

I think the problem though is that the two issues have become too enmeshed in some people’s minds.

people need to realise that there is a difference between terminating a pregnancy because of disability, and terminating a pregnancy after the legal cut off where there is no disability.

Any termination prior to 24 weeks is legal and people have their reasons. And while for some the idea of terminating for disability is unpalatable the fact is that people are free to do so in the same way they are free to terminate a pregnancy after a one night stand.

The issue arises when termination for disability goes beyond the legal limit for termination because of the one night stand.

For me it’s not about saying that the disabled can live long and fulfilled lives. Many disabilities come with challenges and those cannot be downplayed.

But for me the issue is saying that the disabled life is worth so much less than the non disabled one that it can be terminated right up to the point of birth whereas the non disabled one has a cut off.

And actually, I imagine that many people who say they wouldn’t, would judge someone if they had a termination at 24 weeks after a one night stand, or at the very least feel very uncomfortable about it.

I would say it's because as Pp mentioned the rose tinted view the media push on us. Of People with DS being loving warm happy individual.
Nobody wants to talk about the horrific life limiting painful side because that doesn't fit their narrative.

@WaitrosesCheapestVodka, I'm not saying that a doctor would do it for any reason. I'm replying to the people on here saying abortions should be given to term for any reason, it should be the womans right blah blah blah. There's also apparently an HCP on here saying she is 'fine' with late term abortions and carrying them out because she fully believes in women's rights to do what they want with their body. Except they do have that right, up until 24 weeks or a little longer taking into account waits for tests etc. I don't think there is a single reason that a late term abortion/to term abortion should need to take place and that's my view.

Your reply to my mental health argument made no sense. So if mental health teams will ensure that a woman goes to all her antenatal appointments, why can't the fact she doesn't want to be a mum or carry on with the pregnancy be picked up before 24 weeks? That's exactly what I said, that there's a slim chance someone so mentally ill that they get to get full term and not possibly be able to cope and a termination being the only option would slip through the net and just be left to get to full term with an unwanted pregnancy. I'm sure if they expressed even once to a midwife that they couldn't cope that a termination would be offered before 24 weeks. Giving birth and it being dangerous is also another excuse that can't be used because late term abortions require the woman to give birth anyway.

Is it really so hard for women to take some responsibility, know their bodies and discover they're pregnant within 5 months and decide if they want the baby or not? Like is that a lot to ask of people? Really? And commit to a decision once made unless there is time left to change their mind. It's really not the forced birth tripe people are making out on here. No abortions, limits at 10 weeks etc constitute forced birth but freedom to abort all the way to 24 weeks really isn't forced birth. It's asking people to be vaguely proactive in finding out they are pregnant and making a decision within 5 months! For disabilities and anomalies, it's more complex but I still don't get why someone should have the choice to terminate a DS baby at full term. Why? They would have known since the 12 week scan/tests or tests/scan around 20 weeks. I just don't get the full term termination argument at all, just to exercise a 'right'

I agree with an abortion at any stage for any reason because a woman wouldn't get to 9 month pregnant and want it terminated just because. It wouldn't. So stop using that argument to abuse women.

Personally I am against abortion and wouldn't be able to terminate a pregnancy myself unless the unborn baby have a definitive lethal condition (anencephaly, patau or edward syndrome etc). Even then I would be so seriously depressed and forever guilt ridden. Our 3 month old daughter was diagnosed with Spina Bifida Myelomeningocele at 21 weeks. We were offered to terminate multiple times, and we refused point blank. Thank god we did, because she's the most amazing little girl.

Your daughter is amazing because you decided to keep her. If another woman decided to abort thats just fine. Another woman's uterus is nothing to do with you.

A world where women have the choice to terminate viable, healthy and fully formed babies is a cruel one. - No, it is a free one, and one I hope to see in my lifetime.

So maybe equalising the abortion limit is the ‘best’ compromise?

At term then because I don't believe 24 weeks is good enough when it comes to things which may not be picked up until 20 weeks. I know two women who had babies with another trisomy which wasn't picked up on until 25/26 weeks. I didn't get my anomaly scan until 22 weeks with my second.

Had my first child been diagnosed with down syndrome I would have carried on the pregnancy. If my second had been I would have aborted without a moment's hesitation. Dh would like a third child (I'm 42), if that theoretical child became a reality and was diagnosed, again I would have an abortion in a heartbeat. It probably won't though because deep down I have a few personal issues with abortion (raised Catholic) and I feel the risk is too high. That said, I would support every woman's right to terminate to term over forcing a woman to carry if their foetus was diagnosed beyond 24 weeks.

Everyone I know with a disabled sibling had their childhood affected. Missing out on opportunities due to appointments, being expected to care for said sibling...my lovely aunt essentially lost her chance to be a mother herself because she was caring for her brother. That's not a path I want for my existing children. Yes, they might end up becoming disabled and then we would make it work but that's an entirely different set of circumstances.

Existing thread here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3834657-To-think-that-the-world-would-not-be-a-better-place-without-Heidi-Content-Warning-abortion-disability-edited-by-MNHQ

We were offered to terminate multiple times, and we refused point blank. Thank god we did, because she's the most amazing little girl.

I’m very glad you had that choice and were able to make it positively. She looks lovely.

Unfortunately, my parents did not have the same choice with brother with the same condition. His condition was very severe and he did not live for very long. I wish my mother had been able to make the same informed choice - I suspect the outcome for our family would have been better regardless of what she and my father chose.

This has nothing to do with it being the woman’s uterus.

The whole women’s rights argument here is complete bollocks and an insult to women who really do face real women’s rights issues.

Somehow I think that if a woman gave birth and decided she didn’t want a disabled baby after all then people would judge her for that. Go and look up the threads re Julia Hollander to see a fine example of a woman who, after being told by her husband that she had to choose between him and her disabled child, dropped the child at the hospital and then drove all her belongings to the tip. Child was then raised by a woman whose life long vocation it has been to look after children with disabilities whose parents often just didn’t want them. Many people on that thread absolutely recognised how hard it is to bring up a child with disabilities, however there were few who justified her decisions, and those who did received short shrift.

TOP after 24 weeks is very uncommon and always very sad. It’s not a decision made by a callous, cruel mother; but one made out of love and kindness, with the best intentions. I don’t believe that passing a law against this would be in anybody’s best interests.

How is trying to force a woman to go through horrific changes and the agony of labour and parenthood when she doesn't want to not a woman rights issue?!

Yes worst things happen. Fortunately some of us have the mental capacity to think of multiple issues at once.

Stop comparing it to live births. It's not the same.

I don’t think the abortion limit should be at term for Down’s syndrome, it doesn’t seem ethical to end the life of a fully grown foetus. If you accept screening you will know about DS from around 14-16 weeks so I’m unsure why the limit for termination is set at term or why anyone would be in a position where they would feel the need to terminate a fully developed foetus.

24 weeks as a limit is ethical and moral, extending it to term just isn’t. I do have a friend who terminated at 26 weeks for medical reasons which was not an easy decision for her to make nor an easy process. That was at 26 weeks, leaving it a further three months just seems barbaric for both the woman and foetus.

What jackparblane said.

We were offered to terminate multiple times, and we refused point blank

But you had the choice. If you take away one option, it means other women don’t get the choice.

A late termination shouldn't be because of 'her body her choice'. It should be because despite all the best efforts medical staff could make, that baby will not survive and have a horrendous few hours of life if any life at all and the woman will be mentally and physically scarred by giving birth to a baby that will soon die or come up against major issues that would be hard to bare for the woman/family. Labelling it as a choice or right is just really stupid. Women don't terminate babies at 26 weeks and such because they believe it's their right and their choice, they feel they have no choice and that it's a last resort. Women that genuinely do not want a baby, healthy or not, will seek out an abortion much sooner than 24 weeks in most cases so changing the law to allow for any reason to term abortions is just really stupid and campaigning for it is even more stupid.

I find it quite alarming that there's someone working in a maternity position at a hospital that is fine with late term abortions because women's rights prevail or whatever. Surely if you're in the medical profession, you'd be fine doing it because you know it was a last resort and best for the woman and baby? If you want to do things based on people's rights, go and get a job as a solicitor or activist. I don't believe there's a place in hospitals for one track minded people who look at a dead baby at term and say 'at least the woman exercised her rights' instead of 'that was tough but was best for both of them'. It's actually sickening that we are talking about killing fully formed babies and saying it's ok because someone's, one bloody person's, rights were met and as long as they are happy, forget the moral point in it all. The woman won't actually be happy anyway so it seems pointless talking about it