Current campaign to stop abortion of Down’s syndrome after 24 weeks scares me *Content Warning edited by MNHQ*

[olivehater]

It’s seems to be gaining traction and support on social media. It terrifies my that women’s rights to autonomy over their own bodies could be eroded over so called discrimination of the disabled. Where does it end? Down’s syndrome is just one of Many anomalies picked up in screening tests. Why should it be singled out?
Women should be able to make their own choices as they will be the ones left raising these babies. I don’t think it will be entertained but it is worrying all the same the support it has on social media.

I am a sonographer. Believe me the 24weel time limit is not enough time. If you come for a scan in your 20th week the sonographer cant see something, suggests a repeat in a week. Then it is picked up the next week and schedules a scan in feral medicine. You are up to 23 weeks already. Sometimes an mri has to be arranged etc etc.
It is t just about Down’s syndrome. That is just one thing. Sometimes something happens late in the pregnancy. An infection for example, that can severely affect the fetuses brain. That might not be picked up till 30 weeks. It’s a slipperY slope if you start messing with the law for one thing.

*fetal medicine

There were only 18 terminations for downs post 24 weeks in the uk in 2018 (and around 200 post 24 week terminations overall).

It’s likely the principal of the thing. They want to be seen as worthy as a non-DS child. You can say ‘this almost never happens’ like the trans activists do, but it does happen and they do care a great deal about this.

Frankly, I would abort a DS fetus, but then, I pay extra for tests so I would have time to do the necessary thing. Perhaps the NHS should consider making these tests available at the earliest moment—would actually save them money in the long term

This is very concerning. I had a tfmr for Downs, 14 weeks but strongly believe in a woman’s right to choose.
One of my FB friends shared it, she’s very religious (I believe works as some kind of minister) and I couldn’t decide whether to comment.

I would have immediately said that i support the change in law, my sibling has ds and the thought that they should not be here is heartbreaking.

But it is true that the toll on family is high, my parents are now struggling as they get older to look after them, and I have started to (happily) get more involved.

As children, our lives did all become about the youngest with ds. I was able to understand why this was necessary/ happening but my other sibling wasn’t and it’s caused problems in family relationships as a result.

Hand on heart I don’t know what I would do if I was in the position of making this decision (or any decision like this in pregnancy) and whilst the thought of potentially screening out all ds and in the future possibly other types of differences makes me very uncomfortable, I think I have to uphold the woman’s right to choose.

Why should it be legal to kill a viable foetus on grounds of disability

And when women who are unwilling or unable to care for the baby once born, how many of you lot will step up and adopt? I bet not many..... If any
How many will begrudge her when she can't work and is on benefits and in public housing as a full time carer
If the female is 15? How can she care for someone with disabilities, sometimes extremely complex?
You lot simply don't care.
Forcing women to gestate against their will, especially when serious health issues at play is simply horrific

They say you can have an abortion for downs right up until your due date that doesnt sit well with on a personal basis I'm pro abortion but I still flinch at that kind of talk

They say you can have an abortion for downs right up until your due date that doesnt sit well with on a personal basis I'm pro abortion but I still flinch at that kind of talk

I’m not sure you could find easily find a doctor who would consent to giving you one at the latest stages. I could be mistaken though

I don’t think I’ve ever cut and pasted a post of mine from another thread before, but I feel incredibly strongly about this.

My younger brother was born with severe spina bifida. He did not live for very long, but his short life was one of futile struggle and suffering. In 1984, they did not have diagnostic scans but there were signs from long before he was born that things weren’t entirely ok.

I loved and love him deeply, and I wish he had not been born. For his own sake. Not taking into account the lasting impact of his short life and death on my parents, my other brother and me. It nearly destroyed our family and affected me quite profoundly for a long time.

A 20-week scan often doesn’t happen until 21 weeks, or even a little later. If a scan picks up a problem, you have a follow up scan, other diagnostics, you wait for test results. It does not take very much to bump up against 24 weeks. A friend last year spent seven weeks in diagnostics after her 12-week scan, and even then did not get conclusive answers.

Women in that situation should have time to reflect and decide what they can deal with, how they want to handle an incredibly difficult choice, what is best for them and their families. They should not be rushed into that choice by a deadline.

@slipperywhensparticus Absolutely. People can still be pro-choice yet question legislation regarding abortion.

I can see why DS campaigners have brought this up. There was a previous campaign about DS (something to do with terminology and/or Iceland??) and that made me think about things from the point of view of a person with DS.

There is no easy answer - and there shouldn’t be, as it’s a difficult issue. But I do think abortion limits should be ‘fair’ and, if practicable, should generally be the same.

The law is that you can abort for any abnormality up to term. But it is very rare to have a late abortion for Down’s syndrome unless there is a severe heart abnormality picked up later on for example. Even then it is rare as most people would have already know about the Down’s syndrome and already made the decision to have the pregnancy. Most downs is picked up very early. Minor abnormalities are rarely aborted late as at the end of the day you still have to find a Dr that is willing to do it. And they are subject to scrutiny and are subject to their own conscience as anybody is. The law needs to be what it needs to be to protect women. The rights of the woman and her body must come first until the baby is born. Otherwise we are regressing as a civilised society.

You should be able to terminate a pregnancy for any medical reason, because forcing women to gestate against their will is revolting.

There is a simple answer for those women who would not want to TFMR - you don't have to do it. Nobody is forcing you to have an abortion, so if your anomaly scan picks something up you can ignore the results and carry on. But what you want to do for yourself should not be forced on someone else. You don't know their lives, their situations, their capabilities.

I had a sibling who had a severe, degenerative and life limiting illness. The impact to my parents and the wider family was profound. I would TMFR without hesitation.

I'm sure some DS affected people have unhappy lives.
When the wealthy with time to care call for changes they don't think of the poorly, unloved, badly looked after people. When you can't make your wishes and needs clear to others, or others don't listen, life can be miserable imv. Just saying this after meeting them through my previous voluntary work.

Don't even get me started on the NHS! It's nothing but a joke healthcare system these days and needs a massive reform. This isn't about women's rights, it's about the NHS and their waiting times and lack of gumption to deal with anything in a timely manner. There is nothing stopping the NHS from carrying out all the tests and presenting a woman with her options to give her a couple of weeks to make a decision but that just won't happen. The NHS don't believe in the term 'prevention is better than cure'. Rather than hurry scans along and get tests done quickly, they'd rather rely on the option of terminating babies, because that's what they are beyond 24 weeks and treating the mental health of the traumatised mother after she's had to give birth in those cases

This campaign fails to recognise that not all disabilities/illnesses are picked up at the 20 week scan. When I was pregnant with my son a severe brain issue was discovered at 36 weeks - when the scan was actually only done to check on the baby after suspected pre-eclampsia.
After the time it took for appointments to be made and extra scans etc, I was 38 weeks pregnant when it was suggested that we could terminate. To be honest it had never occurred to me that it had would be an option that late on in a pregnancy, but given the potential outcome for my baby, I'm glad it was a choice we had.
As it is, he is doing better than expected but his illness has completely taken over our lives and we have already had to consider that any siblings we may have (he's our first) will have to spend their whole life revolving around his disabilities, and then caring for him when we're gone. Or, that if he doesn't have siblings he may have no one to give him the extra support he needs. That's a lot of pressure on a family.

No one makes the decision to abort a pregnancy at a later stage for medical reasons lightly, and that choice shouldn't be taken away.

The problem of people with disabilities feeling that the law permitting later abortion for them (us) leads to disablism needs to be tackled from the other end, IMO.

Prove that disabled people are valued by voting for suitable education, support and respite for families, support not discrimination for disabled people trying to work, a benefits system that supports those who can't/need it, that hasn't been deemed inhumane by the UN.

Make a world worth bringing disabled people into, and abortion of viable fetuses will cease being an issue.

In the meantime, I had my 20-week scan at 23.6 weeks, no chance for anomaly tests, and decided not to with my second pregnancy either. But since then I've seen friends struggle for over a decade looking after their kid with severe learning disabilities and other medical needs, and it's broken them. Twelve years of baby-like lack of sleep, violent frustrated kid bigger than his mum, and may well have to go into care soon as an hour or two a month of respite isn't near enough.

I'm on my third tribunal to get my kids an education and may have to homeschool. We should be well-off given DP's salary, but instead have used most of our savings. I only get PIP thanks to getting my MP involved.

If I had to decide again, in the current political climate, I think I'd choose differently and want to avoid a known disabled child coming into the world. Horrible to have to say that, but knowing people will suffer is worse.

I think all abortions should be up to term. that way woman can make the choice. if its ok for disability, why not "healthy".

JessyRadlett thank you for sharing your experience

Why should it be legal to kill a viable foetus on grounds of disability

Because the alternative is forced birth

you can’t pick and choose your children

But you can go some extent. Perfectly legally through abortion.

Mynewbeartotoro Of course most women know their is a chance they wont have a healthy baby at the end of their pregnancy but it is not just the Mother who has to cope with a severly disabled child Royallyscrewed was right it is not just the Mother who has to look after the child, the childs siblings always have to play second fiddle to their disabled siblings needs, wants, hospital visits etc.
For many siblings it means they cant join a sports team because their sibling may be ill on the Saturday morning and the parent cant take them to the game on time, so they let their team down which means the Manager cant pick them for the squad. If they are in the school play they often have no family there because their disabled sibling takes priority.
Children with disabled siblings often feel they are forgotten about and can have low self esteem or anger issues.They often get overlooked.
They love their sibling but didnt sign up to look after them.
Yes it is the Mothers choice that is final but it is not just her that will have to look after or pay for that child to be looked after for life.

@BaolFan what you want to do for yourself should not be forced on someone else.

Truer words were never said. If people gave more thought to themselves and others, they would realise ^^ More thought and consideration.

This is such an emotive subject but we have the ability to make the choice about terminations, we shouldn't curtail that choice now. Unless you want to go down the slippery slope and eventually stop that choice for women. Which I can't agree with.

I know someone who has agreed to care for their DS sibling when the time comes. Their own parents have no life and never go anywhere. They didn’t even come to her wedding or ever been to her house. Sibling has multiple issues and can’t go anywhere.
She has 3 children herself who will now experience the same.

Samcro, they currently have 24 weeks to decide for healthy babies and that's long enough. The extension beyond 24 weeks should only be for extreme cases and health reasons only as it is now. Medical professionals should not have to make decisions and witness full term healthy babies being delivered dead because a woman can't make a decision within 24 weeks. If your life is in such a mess that you can't tell you're pregnant by 24 weeks or simply don't care, as I said medical reasons for woman and baby, rape etc aside, then you should really consider if sex is the right choice for you. Surely no one is irresponsible enough to wait beyond 24 weeks to seek a termination for a healthy baby?

And who are you to decide what an extreme case is?

Is the mothers own mental health not good enough?
Are you so uneducated that you don't understand that it can take longer than 24 weeks to get a clear picture on what is going on and for the woman to be briefed by a medical team.

I don’t have personal experience but don’t women often have to wait several weeks to actually have an abortion - so if they found out at 22/23 weeks they would be over the threshold?