What's fair? Team of working mums and annual leave in school holidays

[Lovingmylife]

I started a new role not so long ago and we are all working mums. Most with school age children, two with babies/preschool and two with older teenagers.

Our manager has told us that too many of us want Easter holidays/May half term and so it's causing a bit of a hoohaa.

Manager has said she will do first come first served unless we come up with a better solution.

We have first come first served but there are stipulations
5 days have to be used before April
Then 10 days between April and September
5 days between September and December
Holidays can be booked a year in advance except Christmas which can't be booked till October and we can only have 2 days over Christmas
It is a system that works well

Sometimes it's always going to be shit. We had an office with 4 mums of school age children who all wanted to take 2 week holidays during the summer holidays and were told they could only have 1.5 weeks each.

We are all allowed 2 weeks off between May to October. We are given a date by which time we have to submit our requests.
After that time everyone can then submit their other requests.

List the 13 weeks of school leave on a board now starting with September 2020 for the school year ahead. Tell all the staff they can put their name against two specific weeks with a maximum of two names each week. This will then be guaranteed.

What about the staff member who isn't working on the day you do this?

That's why first come first served methods, whether online or by board or by word of mouth, don't work. In the modern world of flexible working, part-time working, etc it is inherently unfair.

I don't miss coordinating annual leave. Can't actually remember how we used to do it. Fortunately we didn't have many working parents as the summer holidays were our busiest time and leave was restricted for everyone from June-September although it was getting better as I left.

No issues now as I work in a team where everyone contracts and time off can't be refused. It's occasionally an issue - over May half term there's only two people in from our team of 7 but the work will just backlog or the wider team will help out. We've also expanded our team to cope with holiday cover for this reason.

My DH company(I am a SAHM) has a process of if one person has been off the previous Christmas then they have to work the next one .That way is fairer ,and causes less arguments .Summer leave is 2 weeks only each person and Easter is a free for all! Im sure it must be a nightmare for managers !

It's hardly just a woman issue though is it?
I've always done it on a first come, first served broadly. Xmas I asked for what people wanted and then allocated as fairly as possible.
School hols tried to give people 2 weeks together if possible. But we had a work diary and a rule that if 2 were already off not to ask.

”We have a lady who manages to book Christmas off every year- it’s just not fair as several people want it but she somehow gets in there first.”

What do you mean “somehow”? Can’t you do whatever it is she does? Get in early that day or whatever?

I agree that first come first served can be problematic but if everyone knows that’s the deal and understand how it works, you can’t then be puzzled at how someone beats you to it or cross because they’ve organised themselves.

Yoy shouldn't have to know your Christmas plans by January, that's not reasonable

I don't have children so I am happy to work school holidays why would I want time off when it's busier and more expensive everywhere though. My place is strictly first come first served. I do try and get Christmas eve off but I do make sure anybody on my team with children know I am happier for them to have it if they need it

We aren't allowed more than 2 weeks off each over summer holidays which means most people can get the same amount of time off.

What do you mean “somehow”? Can’t you do whatever it is she does? Get in early that day or whatever?

As a fresh-faced young graduate, after a few years of being told by older, more longstanding colleagues that I “wasn’t allowed” to take Christmas off because their plans were more important (travel, family, the usual), I resolved to do just that.

I got my festive holiday logged the second I could, and my manager – who blatantly knew the score - sent me a very deliberately worded confirmation of my approved leave, along with the automated system confirmation.

Later in the year, there was absolute outrage, but manager stood up for me and told the witches they’d had as much opportunity as me to book the time off and they’d all had more than their fair share in the past anyway.

Was brilliant!

Where Dh worked, everyone was given their holiday request form in September and had to request give their preferred holiday dates in order of preference. The forms had to be handed in by end of October and then any clashes were dealt with in order of how long the person had worked there. When the dcs were at school, Dh used to like to take his two weeks at Christmas so that was his first choice. Some used to complain about it, but it meant that we rarely had two weeks in the summer whereas most others used to man the summer weeks as their first choice. Apart from Christmas, he used to try for one of the half term weeks and a week in the summer. Other than that he used to wait and see what was left after everyone else had chosen.
I don't think there is a good way to allocate holidays - someone will always have a reason why their request should get priority; they have school age children, their partner has to take leave when told (services, shutdowns etc), or like me, their partner works in a school. Luckily, dh rarely experienced a clash, so the problem didn't really arise.

It’s complicated isn’t it. I’m lucky at the moment as I’m a team of 7 there isn’t really any problems with taking the time off we want. I generally coordinate with my colleague who does the same work as me but she has grown up kids so rarely wants holiday time off and Xmas we shut down so that’s not an issue.
DH is a team of 3 and only 1 can be off at the same time apart from the odd day so he has to negotiate with his colleagues a bit more although luckily one of his colleagues kids goes to private school so they generally go on holiday earlier in the summer when they break up.
The last time I worked somewhere with a stricter first come first served only 2 people off at the same time policy was before I had kids so I never really noticed a big issue.
When the kids were little I worked evenings in a restaurant ok a zero hours contract so if you didn’t work you didn’t get paid. The only day I’d kind of insist I wasn’t working was Xmas eve but as the owner and some of the staff were Muslim and Xmas eve wasn’t a thing for them it was ok, plus I was always happy to work New Year’s Eve when lots of the other younger staff wanted to go out.

First come first served is the fairest.

And no, I don’t think parents should have “first dibs” on school holidays either; that is absolutely outrageous (I know this isn’t applicable in your situation though OP).

The problem with first come first served is that there will always be someone who sits on their pc waiting for the new holiday year to open and then bangs in their requests for the prime dates for the full year.

Trust me, I once had a member of staff who used to do this!

After him doing it two years running on the third year I sat him down and said I wouldn't be approving his leave requests until I had spoken to other members of the team about whether they wanted any of those dates as it really wasn't fair that he got to take Easter, 3 weeks in August and Christmas off 3 years running (meaning no one else could).

He was pissed off and went to HR who backed me up

Fairest way is for the Manager to talk to all of the team together and individually, gauge who wants which school holidays and agree them based on who had them previously, who has greatest need etc.

Those saying this is too much work for a Manager, well tough, that's literally part of what we are being paid to do!

First come first served isn’t fairest, it’s just administratively easiest for the employer.

@janj2301 do you work for a company beginning with J or W? Sounds the same as our place (W) world war 3 every year over holiday allocations.

@SemperIdem
Well maybe they are going away with friends that have children or what about grandchildren might like to see them or take them away for couple of weeks.

Holiday allocation based on first past the post and/or seniority only fosters animosity. It doesn't take much to work out a rota system that move on by 1 or 2 weeks each year. That way everybody knows when they will have holiday so that they can plan to travel and they can swop with another person for convenience if it suits.

You will never please everyone, whatever you do.

I usually need the second and last week of August off. This is to help my siblings with childcare based on what leave they are able to book. I only work with one other person who likes 2 weeks together in August. We tend to alternate yearly now but one of us is always annoyed. My workmate can't have her 2 weeks abroad or one of my siblings has to spend a fortune on childcare.

@Undercoverworker06 No begins with b then a q and yes it's a nightmare

If you mean a shop and not offices or distribution then somewhere like that would be ideal for job share between working parents and students.

Working parents work in term time only and students working in the holidays.

I think its unreasonable to expect people with no children to be last in the queue for holidays. Workplace flexibility needs to apply to everyone equally. I for one, am getting annoyed at getting the stink eye from my boss when I need any flexibility, while no one questions the mothers leaving early etc.

First come first served is the fairest - if you want it, you make sure you book as soon as your employer allows you to.

I don't think people who are well organised should be penalised.

I did work for one boss who thought leave should be allocated on merit, although in the event she never refused me leave when I asked for it (I was the only one in our team with a school aged child and nobody was married to a teacher). I also had another boss who used to take requests for school holidays because most of the team were mums of school aged kids and the way he did it was if eg you got Easter this year you'd get summer next year. That wouldn't have worked for me because I always want May half term and can live without time off in the summer, but on the other hand people tend to want the summer more than May half term (and as I am not a ski-er, I didn't need Feb half term).

A first come first served approach also allows those without school aged kids to nab the school holidays if they really want them (eg because they want to go on holiday with a teacher or there's a wedding). I'm always quite surprised how many people take holidays in August who aren't married to teachers/school staff though and don't have kids - why would you want to go away when the weather's not that great, everyone's sprogs are around and it's more expensive?