Students should spend an hour on the picket line

[Jux]

..... supporting their lecturers instead of asking for their money back. Education is not a commodity like a big mac.

Oh fuck off. It has been made into a commodity - fees are extortionate and students graduate to a lifetime of debt.

When you pay £27 000 + for 3 years of education, you can damn well be angry you aren't getting your moneys worth.

and I think the commodification of education is a shit move and we don't need to encourage it, do we? Or do you think it's great? Are you going to expect money back if you/your child get a 3rd and don't get a good job after? Where's the cut off? 2/2? What about a low 2/1?

You don't think that the working and employment practices of the University have any effect on how well the students are taught and how well they learn, then? Treating the staff who deliver your 'commodity' well might make your commodity rather better quality.

Treating the staff who deliver your 'commodity' well might make your commodity rather better quality.

Why is the student’s job to make the staff feel better? They’re beef is with management who need tackling.

Most university staff who are on strike strongly support the move for students to ask for money back. Why shouldn't they? If we are giving them less teaching they should pay less money.
And it makes the strike more effective as it has clearer negative impact on the universities.

Why they hell should they!?! If you’re not happy about your own pay and conditions, then feel free to strike. But don’t try to forcibly co-opt other people.

Also, please remember this is not a 'lecturer' strike. Many many support staff and non-academic staff are also on strike.

It's not all undergrads that are affected. I'm paying a fortune for a masters.

I can't say fuck off because it's a personal attack and will get deleted.

So instead I will just say - bugger off!

Jux unfortunately, that's already an issue . Students (and many of their parents) believe that, through having become liable directly for a larger percentage of the cost of their education, they also buy the right to high grades. That horse has long bolted . One of the reasons that grade inflation is so rampant (though not the only one)

A degree used to be a differentiator. Then, loads more people started doing degrees, and it was a 2:1 or a First that became the differentiator. Then so many people got these, everyone started doing Master's as well... And the fat lady still isn't singing

The commodification of education: that genie is never going back in the bottle

Hefzi, yes. I went to Uni in my 30s back in the 90s. When Blair announced the 50% graduate stuff I thought it was a joke - what you have said was so bloody OBVIOUSLY going to happen.

TheYear, I don't think telling someone to fuck off is a personal attack, is it? I thought pas were more "You're a fucking idiot" kind of thing. You're quite welcome to say either or both and chuck in a bugger off while you're at it , I won't be reporting you, and it doesn't look like anyone else on this thread would either.

TooDamnSarky, of course ; yes. I used lecturer as shorthand. I think Unis are the Jewels in our Crown, kind of, and want to keep them that way. They can only give top class education if the lecturers, librarians and all the other staff are teated properly. Like the NHS, they have been underfunded for a long time and all staff need to be treated well, just as in the NHS.

I don't think it's the student's job "to make the staff feel better". I think that's a very odd way of describing giving support to a badly treated group who have a strong and important effect on your on life, in fact the more I think about it, the odder that attitude seems to me, sorry.

Support them on the picket line? Nah, I'd imagine I'm like the majority of other students and have a few deadlines due in the next 3 weeks before the end of term. With no support whatsoever. And certainly no extensions unlike the lecturers who will still be given their 10 working days to mark once they return.

I work in a uni. All the striking staff are pushing students to kick up a fuss and ask for their money back. Emailing the VC demanding reimbursement puts pressure on them to negotiate

I don't think all students are entitled to picket, are they? I've seen emails circulating warning students not to picket, too.

And agree with TooDamn.

I'm not eligible to strike as I currently work outside the UK, but have been in UK HE for the past few years and I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable pressuring students to picket.

I think the fundamental nature of education is that it's a collaboration between the teacher and the student. Therefore, I see them as a pair and what affects one affects the other. So, I think students should be standing on the picket lines, yes absolutely. Ask for money back too, sure, but if you're not prepared to support your teachers by standing with them publicly then you have the wrong attitude to education to start with. Imo.

And yes, my dd is there standing with her teachers and support staff. Well, she's sitting and is occasionally chatting but mostly reading for an essay due in next week. (Well, that's what she says.) I believe she's just done a small tea run.

No one's forcing or pressuring students are they? I certainly haven't, and I'm not aware of anyone else doing so. It's only a couple people here who've used those sort of words - sensationalising what I said.

Besides, you're not supposed to be on a picket line if you don't work there.

That was a law brought in in the 80s to stop "flying pickets" (not the band).

I would say that saying 'students should ...' is certainly pressuring them. Who are you to tell them what they should do?

I'm not remotely interested in sensationalising anything. But if you're not, maybe you could have worded it in a less, well, sensationalising way?

Yeah part of Thatchers strategy to break the unions. Students certainly aren't flying pickets (or even secondary pickets I don't think).

There's nothing to stop them standing where they like, as long as they don't obstruct and are not threatening. Don't pick up a placard, and if asked just say you feel comfy or safe sitting here or you always spend this time of day in this place it just happens that a lot of other people are here today....

All things we said 20 years ago on our lecturers picket.

I'm not sympathetic to a relative who IS a lecturer. He officially gets 35 days' annual leave as opposed to my 25 days. He doesn't seem to go into the office at all during July/Aug nor do I observe him working from home overly much during that period and it's not annual leave! His employer pays 23.7% contribution into his pension as opposed to my private sector defined contributions scheme employer who pays 5%. We're on comparable salaries but in reality, he is on much more purely due to an extra 2 weeks' official annual leave (let alone the rest). Tbf, in general, private sector pensions can never compete against public sector pensions anyway. He is a lucky so & so but fails to recognise it!

They should be on the same terms as the support staff and the non-academic staff whose terms and conditions are more aligned with the private sector imo!

Yes, I'm aware that the support staff and the non-academic staff want similar terms to the academic staff. I would love 7 weeks' minimum annual leave and a 23.7 % employer's pension contribution. Don't we all?

I completely disagree with you Sarah. Saying "I think X should.." is a perfectly ordinary form of words. Taking it to mean forcing people to do something is incomprehensible.

I think the Government should... is that force? No, it's opinion.

There's so much anger and distrust for unionism. Whatever happened to solidarity?

Students will be workers themselves one day in the not-too-distant future.

We are ALL disadvantaged by capitalism and commodification - students, lecturers, and service staff alike. The only ones profiting are the corporations.

Less division. More working together.

Bezalelle the most intelligent post on this thread

TooDamnSarky there there, have a cuppa and a nice cushion. I see and understand and sympathise with your despair.

Bezalelle agree 100%

Queen also agree 100%