von/van surnames - what is the rule?

[IamAporcupine]

I can't get hold of the people in question so I am hoping someone in MN will be able to help.

How do you list in alphabetical order surnames that use von/van and have different capitalization? such as:

Katja von der Hagen
Phillip Van der Berg

Treat the Von/van as part of the surname so list with the Vs. The U.K. version of those names (Fitz, Mc, ap, O') would be treated as beginning F, M etc)

titchy's answer makes sense. You could also try asking in Pedants' corner. The sorts of people who are likely to know these sort of rules tend to hang out in there. I'm interested to know, too.

I would normally do as titchy suggests, but I seem to remember that it also depends on the capitalization.
So von der Hagen would be H, but Van der Berg would be V

Don't know if you mean in UK. But if in German and Dutch I would try the name with the capital letter. Von/van just means 'from'.

Sorry if I misunderstood .

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule once you're outside of the Netherlands, at least for the vanders. I think is the correct one in the Netherlands itself is no caps and spaces for the "van der" meaning "of the" or "from the", and a capital for the last part. So "van der Graaf". But these days you will increasingly see it all as one word since so many forms won't accept spaces in a surname, or losing the capital letter in the middle.

Oh and I meant to say I'd list with the Vs, not the last name, since the "of the" is part of the surname.

Thanks Xiaoxiong

But in the example below:
Katja von der Hagen
Phillip Van der Berg

This ^ is how they^ write their own name.

Would you still list them both with the Vs?
(I had Katja with the Hs)

I'd say in the UK in this day and age I probably would expect to find both of those names in the Vs, even though the van is not capitalised in the first one it's still the beginning of her surname. I don't think there is any official rule though.

I've always wanted to be called Yvonne von Vaughn

Have you posted actual people's names on here?

I'm dutch with a van name. i'll explain.

Katja von der Hagen
Phillip Van der Berg

Katja van der Hagen should be listed under H. Van der is not written capitalized unless at the beginning of a sentence or if the first name or initial are missing, so it's Mrs. Van der Hagen.

Phillip Van der Berg is either belgian (although non capitalised versions also exist there, and then follow the dutch rule) or american or something like that and I would always capitalize the V and lost him under V. But maybe someone from belgium can help me out here.

Same goes with names that are van, van de, van den, de, et cetera.

In an international group listing, I would have them both in the V as thats how many people would search for them. If the attendees/viewer of list were majority Dutch or German then I'd take advice. My german colleagues are always very understanding about me breaking rules such as using first names and so on where it would cause explosive fall out

Have you posted actual people's names on here?

She posted such generic names there will be multiple people called that. Something along the lines of Harry Smith or Richard Jones.

@omikron - Yes, and I am about to post their addresses and phone number

Thanks betternamepending!
So it looks like I had them right?!

Katja von der Hagen is actually German - would that change things?
My German colleague has just now suggested to put them both under the V...?

and you are right, Phillip Van der Berg is Belgian

I don't know about german, sorry. I know what I would do but that might be incorrect. Best ask them if no german people on here react.

Just realise I have another problem:

I have also a German Vince van Acht
Should he go under the A?

Thanks!

cross post
@posterbetternamepending - thanks!

My german isn't that good as it used to be but if I understand the following correctly they list just as the dutch (that would be Acht, Vince von so under the A or Hagen, Katja von under the H) unless the letter is capitalised.

Namenszusätze (de, De, Mc, von, van usw.):
a) Nach DIN 5007 werden alle Namenszusätze (egal, ob groß- oder kleingeschrieben) dem Vornamen nachgeordnet (Gogh, Vincent van; Groot, Lucas de; Knigge, Adolph Freiherr von; Maurier, Daphne Du), wenn sie nicht mit ihm verschmolzen sind (wie in DuMont, Marcus Theodor; McCullers, Carson).
b) In Lexika werden dagegen großgeschriebene Namenszusätze vorangestellt (also abweichend von a) bei: Du Maurier, Daphne).
Bei Umlautbuchstaben (4.) und bei Namenszusätzen (7.) wäre daher zu entscheiden und am besten zu dokumentieren, ob man sich a) nach der DIN 5007, Teil 2 richten will oder b) nach den allgemeinen ABC-Richtlinien bzw. dem Vorgehen, das in Nachschlagewerken üblich ist.

I have a van der Xxx surname - always listed under V. Afrikaans/Dutch heritage, but in UK.

I am a Von , in real life . No idea where my name was filed under .

Prussian heritage .

Ok, excellent, thanks so much

So I'm going with:
Vince van Acht (A)
Katja von der Hagen (H)
Phillip Van der Berg (V)

I would do it the way you have OP :) Always after the capitalised name.

Update

The Germans have confirmed they go with the A/H (not the v)

Thats really useful to know, thanks for updating

Isee I have the same and would also expect to be with the Vs! Must be a Dutchie thing...