Desperately need some advice re daughter.

[QueenoftheDay]

My daughter is nearly five and started school this year (Scotland). She’s the youngest in her year. She’s coped well - she has made friends and is really enjoying the work. Prior to school she was at nursery three days per week and thrived there too.

I’m noticing however that she is very needy compared to her friends at school. It’s been worse recently. She does nothing for herself. She will follow me from room to room. Hates to be alone for a second (so will sit in the bathroom while I shower etc rather than just watch tv or something). Won’t dress herself. Won’t go to the toilet herself. She can do these things. She just will not do them when at home.

The worst thing however is her sleep. Every single night one of us (usually me) must lie with her until she goes to sleep. It was previously the case that she would be asleep by half seven so that was fine. But since starting school she is tossing and turning until 9.30pm-10pm most nights. She doesn’t even try to go to sleep. Singing and whispering to herself.

Not only am I concerned about the amount of sleep she is getting (granted she seems to cope fine without it) this is taking a tremendous toll on us. We have no time together any more. Also, no time to get anything done. I need my evenings to work or catch up with housework etc. It’s impacting on my mental health. I now start to feel agitated as bedtime rolls around because I just can’t bear it. I’m trying so so hard to be patient but it’s so hard sometimes. Trying to balance that and work and marriage and all the other stuff that needs done.

We have tried everything I can think of. Nightlights. Audio books. Returning her to bed over and over again. Absolutely nothing works. Nothing. She’s so strong willed. I have tried sitting in my bedroom across the hall with the lights on so she knows I’m there and can shout if she needs me but she just won’t stay in bed.

I don’t know what to do. I can’t sustain this I feel like we have literally no life. I love her so much but it’s suffocating.

I have read on here before that it might be better to just let her play in her room from bedtime and let her sleep when she’s ready. I may try this tonight (although suspect she won’t sit in her room alone) but I genuinely think if she is left to her own devices she will still be wandering around at midnight.

Please, please help

She's not the youngest in her year though - if she's nearly 5 she's one of the oldest, or if you're in Scotland she's right in the middle of the age range.
Just be firm, don't accept this. Google Supernanny stay in bed technique, do it absolutely consistently.

You must, because all the pandering is doing no-one any favours. I mean this kindly, as you sound like a brilliant mum, but it's time to take charge

This might be ridiculous but have you tried putting her to bed earlier? If my 4yo goes to bed after 7 shes overtired and her brain is too stimulated to sleep. It's a PITA but we have dinner at 4:30, then books or audiobooks downstairs with curtains drawn, up for a bath at 5:45, then into bed. We have blackout blinds and I read two stories. She isnt perfect and she sometimes doesnt settle especially if shes had a busy stimulating day but it works well on the whole for her. She is amazingly outgoing and confident and she very often ends up in bed with me at some point in the night she just needs that reassurance

Have you tried a weighted blanket/ Lycra sheet? You wouldn’t need to look for appropriate weight for age, but they can calm the nervous system and provide some reassurance, which may help on top of being upstairs and busy, but popping in.
Also- what about reverse baby monitor? So she can hear you are still about, talk a bit, but you don’t need to be in the room? Lack of child free time kills me- I just can’t handle it.

Is she used to being prioritised at all times? You say she’s absolutely adored but she could be playing you, and if no one has ever said to her, look, you just need to occupy yourself for five minutes then she’s not going to suddenly want to be by herself. If she’s never had to just do it, yes she might be a bit anxious/nervous about it but the current situation is just not tenable.

After ruling out anything more serious, I’d break out the reward charts and just get on with it. I’m also not sure I would jeapordize her sibling’s good sleep either.

Oh you poor thing. I’d be tearing my hair out.
I think I would take the sister back out- don’t jeopardise her sleep if it isn’t helping anyway. And I would give up on your DD actually going to sleep when you want her to, and instead focus on getting her to stay in her room from x time. She can play or whisper or read or whatever, but you leave at, say, 7.30pm. I might even try using a baby gate or something for an additional barrier?

Maybe reinstate the baby monitor? A quick radioed “no darling, you need to stay in your room now” might be less disruptive than you laying in there.

Also: story tapes might help her have a voice in the room and be vaguely distracting/relaxing?

I wonder if there’s a kids version of those Kalms herbal type things...

We had this with ds2 I know it feels easier to give in but you put her to bed two nights then gave up and tried something else. You need to keep at it. It feels horrible at the time but right now you upset her and you then go backwards again.
Ds2 it did feel like forever but in reality it was less than a week of returning to bed to get him to stay there. He’s 9 now and still doesn’t always go to bed and go straight to sleep and he’d still rather someone was upstairs but he happily potters in his room now. He will often come out again just before he’s ready to sleep to get another kiss and cuddle last thing.
I get how frustrating and time consuming lying down with them feels ds was getting later and later so I had to just keep putting him back until he stayed.

Your D is showing the stress of starting school by feeling like she needs extra attachment to you. Getting you to meet her needs , regressing is a sign of stress. When at home I'm a very little girl again not the old girl that goes to school.
Its all to do with her circle of security.
Its a bit like a toddler. They push their parents care and try to control even though they don't want to.
Sit by her on the floor. Don't lie with her and slowly move the distance you are by her over the days. Make it clear that you are there but not how she dictates it.
Revert back to backwards chaining with toileting. You do it all for her apart from last thing. Flushing. Get her to do it. Then she does the next thing. Paper down the loo and flushed it. This way she is always succeeding but she feels you are there for her.
Even though she can do it you are psychologically showing her it's ok to be independent.

How about a trusted relative/friend who is the no nonsense type babysit a few times to break the routine/habit.
This worked for a friend whose boys were very similar. I babysat. Told the boys that if they chose to stay awake that was up to them but I did not want to hear or see them. They could play quietly, draw/read. They tried it on. I didn't engage, made it as boring as possible. Once they realised I wasn't reacting they gave up...it was a few weeks of me going in maybe once or twice a week but they only needed to know I would be popping over and would go to bed.
I'm not scary ...honest! and their mum could have a few hours off

Sooo tonight I snuggled her into my bed and she was asleep by 7.45 🙈 I don’t know if she was maybe just exhausted and gave in, but she was like a different child.

I’ve had an epiphany and this thread has been so helpful. Regression. That’s what it is. So I shall need to just go with it for now. She will come out the other side...right?

I have always lain with my son. He is 5 and has 2 younger sisters. He has a strict routine. Bath, PJs, story, teeth, lie down with a story CD and no talking. I have to sit there but I do admin on my phone.
I just do what works. It's tiring, but having kids is.

I also find that with all 3 of them, the earlier we start bedtime, the less drawn out it is. But realistically from in the bath to fast asleep is roughly 1.5-2 hours. It just is. If I accept that I get less stressed about it.

By the way my 3 year old is different. I wish we could just lie with her. She is another story!

I would say bed at 8pm then reading until 8.30 is to late.

They go past the window of opportunity.

I saw a programme where they advise to bring bedtime earlier, not later.

If my DD is in bed at 6.45 she is asleep by 7.00.

If I make it later she is bouncing off the walls & a pain in the arse!

Last night sounds good though OP.