8yo refuses to say please, thank you or sorry

[m0therofdragons]

I have 3dds and dd3 is very confident/likes to be in control and get her own way. Others seem to pander to her at school or in clubs and she's queen bee although I honestly don't think she's actually aware of this.

Dd1&2 are polite and caring but dd3 can be really selfish, hates saying please and thank you like it's a punishment and I've no idea how to tackle it. Any ideas / experiences welcome. Thank you

I think I've heard my 8yo genuinely appologise a couple of times. His manners are otherwise good, but he seems to have a mental block on being able to admit that he was in the wrong. A couple of SNs have been identified, but not one that adequately covered that characteristic. You can tell from his body language that he knows when he's done wrong, but he can't seem to verbally express it. Rather than nagging a reluctant and sarcastic "sorry" from him, it seems to be working better talking about his actions and outcomes and how I can tell that he's disappointed about what he's done.

His sibling tends to be quite forthcoming about appologies.

She definitely knows when she's in the wrong but won't take responsibility, always blaming others. On Monday are couldn't find her ballet shoes that we'd asked her to put away the previous week and she said she had. They turned up downstairs but she blamed dh saying he'd taken them from her drawer deliberately to get her in trouble (with him because I wasn't home). That's just one example. No sn just emotional and frustrated on a new level as soon as she started this school year. She's an angel child at school and so polite apparently!

I'd pretend you haven't heard anything that doesn't come with a please, and quietly but firmly remove anything given that doesn't get a thank you.

As for sorry, that's more tricky. Maybe natural consequences rather than apologies- so don't look for the lost ballet shoes and she doesn't go to ballet/ goes but sits at the side etc.

I'd pretend you haven't heard anything that doesn't come with a please

Not as in comedy deaf 'pardon.. what was that'- just point blank ignoring.

I just stand, looking at them saying p-p-p-p-p until they say please. Else I raise the mum eyebrow.

The last time we were in public and DS refused to say thank you, I removed the item he had been given (at the check-out) and handed it back. I then had to manhandle a screaming, tantrumming, fighting, very heavy 5 year old plus buggy out of the shop. He never refused again. Occasionally they still need reminding (7&9) but a finger on the shoulder or a "what do you say?" is enough. With my youngest, it was because she was quite shy, but she's got better over time.

she blamed dh saying he'd taken them from her drawer deliberately to get her in trouble
That's more serious than not saying please and thank you and I would come down hard on them trying to get someone (sibling, in our case) into trouble.

As others have said, if she doesn't say please and thank you, she doesn't get what is on offer.

Those things are non negotiable in our house (and also in the school nursery where I work). Refusal to say please or thank you would result in not getting whatever it was, refusal to say sorry would result in some “thinking time”.

It seems as though she has some strong narcissistic tendencies. Perhaps therapy might be useful.

Do you not think it’s just a phase and it will pass.

I'm hoping it's a phase. I definitely get the not giving something unless please or thank you has been said but sometimes there isn't time and not giving her the thing her siblings have would result in a tantrum. Now that's fine if it means dd3 then misses out on going out but it's not fair on her siblings. I'm finding it much harder to find time but I know we have to.

Blaming others is hard to explain because she's not trying to get others in trouble just outright refusing to take responsibility. She's actually been super lovely tonight so I think she realises she pushed it this morning.

Thinking this through, I think she's struggling with developing emotions and is overwhelmed. She seems to need processing time so we've spoken this evening about this morning's behaviour. Trying to speak like this this morning would have escalated it.

but sometimes there isn't time and not giving her the thing her siblings have would result in a tantrum

Ok, but this really needs to happen. Else how will she learn? Do some parenting strategy (tactics?). Pick her up on it when your DH is around and one of you take the others out to do whatever was planned.

Blaming others is hard to explain because she's not trying to get others in trouble just outright refusing to take responsibility.

She may not be intending to get others into trouble, but that is what she is doing. She needs to realise this. What will happen when she blames stuff on other kids at school? On her siblings?

"and what's the magic word?"

Kiddo soon learned that "please" was the Open Sesame word to everything.

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To add we've had exactly the same situation with the dance shoes!

Do you model or give her examples of how you want her to behave? We've had endless talks about taking responsibility for their mistakes. That it doesn't matter as long as they learn from them. So I would explain that saying "I forgot to put them away and now I can't find them, please will you help me look for them" will get a sigh and where did you last have them and help from me; then we can decide how to stop it happening next time. She has a designated place to put them if she has to take them out of her bag, she has to do her dance bag the night before etc. Whereas blaming her brother for taking them = big trouble.

Like if they break something. They get thanked for telling me and not in as much trouble as if they'd tried to conceal it.

Why would she change if there are no repercussions for her not saying please or thank you?

and what's the magic word?" yep been doing that forever and worked with dd1&2. She seems to think she's above it.

Dh and I tend to tag team as dc have different clubs and we both work 37.5 hours a week.

She was actually saying please and thank you tonight and looking really pleased with herself so I gave loads of praise about how lovely it was when she said that and how proud I was of her for listening to me and trying hard to change her behaviour etc.

This is making me reflect a lot and I think there's more going on. I will keep a close eye on things.

There are repercussions if she asks for a treat but if I hand her her school lunch bag instead of making her get it herself then a thank you is nice and dd1&2 would do that. If she doesn't at thank you I can't not give her her lunch box or put it on the table and end up with her stubbornly refusing to get it as we'd either be late for school or turn up without her lunch.

I can't not give her her lunch box or put it on the table and end up with her stubbornly refusing to get it as we'd either be late for school or turn up without her lunch

I think you can! Phone the school and order her a school dinner from work- she can just eat whatever is on offer there if she won't pick up her own lunch box!!!

Make her pick her own lunchbox up! If she refuses tell her fine she can go hungry! Then ring the school and explain what happened - oh and tell her you will be ringing the school to explain. bet she'd soon pick that lunchbox up!

I definitely get the not giving something unless please or thank you has been said but sometimes there isn't time and not giving her the thing her siblings have would result in a tantrum.

Too bad. Sorry, I know it's tough and it's rotten for your other DC's at times like this but you're doing exactly what your 8 year old tells you to do.

My DS went through a weird stage when he wouldn't take his lunchbox. No way was I kow towing to a 7 year old so he went without it. I then took a bottle of water and bread and butter to school and they served him that for lunch (he didn't know I'd taken it up there). Same thing happened the following day but never happened again after that.

This will only get worse if you don't sort it out now.

Ah, you're not ketti g the consequences play out. So she doesn't need to say please or thank you. I get that when time is tight and it's about her lunch that she'll need at school it's difficult, but I'd leave extra time to allow for this. It's essential that she learns the non negotiables.

You have to follow through each and every time.

As for sorry, I'd be tempted to say that if you behave like a baby, I'll treat you like one. On the naughty step, just like a baby. No big explanations, no pleading with her or cajoling, just behave like a baby, be treated like a baby. She'll get it soon enough!

I look after an 8 year old like this and I find it so difficult at times. Any requests without a please or without a polite tone are completely ignored. It often takes a prompt from a much younger child.

I also find if I overly praise this child for good manners/behaviour, the behaviour deteriorates. It's as if they don't like the positive attention.

I have over 2 decades of childcare experience and have never come up against behaviour quite like it.

My DD is autistic and doesn't often say please, thank you, sorry or goodbye. When it's a situation where it's just not occurred to her (as opposed to when she is overwhelmed and just can't speak) I will prompt her or pause and wait for her to do so. Lots of praise when she remembers

I wasn't a big one for apologies at age eight still amn't but I was punctilious about please/thank you.

Like others have said, she needs to feel the consequences of her behaviour, even if that means tantrumming.

OP, if she refuses to say please or thank you, and is breaking your house rules, then you should definitely cancel a planned treat or outing, even if that affects the other two DC. They will be furious with her! She will get tirades of abuse from her siblings for spoiling everyone’s fun.
This will underline the fact that your rules, and good manners, are non negotiable. That they apply to her, not just her siblings, and she can no longer “get away with it” just because others would be affected.
When she has finished having the inevitable tantrum, explain calmly that her bad behaviour has spoiled the day for everyone, and it is a great pity that she prefers being rude to having a nice day out.
If you are firm, fair and consistent, I think she will soon learn to toe the line. And show your other DC that DD3 doesn’t have any special dispensation to get away with ill manners when they don’t.