8yo refuses to say please, thank you or sorry

[m0therofdragons]

I have 3dds and dd3 is very confident/likes to be in control and get her own way. Others seem to pander to her at school or in clubs and she's queen bee although I honestly don't think she's actually aware of this.

Dd1&2 are polite and caring but dd3 can be really selfish, hates saying please and thank you like it's a punishment and I've no idea how to tackle it. Any ideas / experiences welcome. Thank you

I also find if I overly praise this child for good manners/behaviour, the behaviour deteriorates. It's as if they don't like the positive attention.

This could be my DD, her background is such her self esteem is very fragile - if she does something well or gets some form of praise I know there will be a backlash, it’s like she needs to return the universe to its “usual” order whereby she’s in trouble again. Drives me crazy but I know where it comes from for her.

Not taking responsibility is the bit I’d be most concerned about. To be a decent person you have to be able to be responsible for your own actions.

Have a look at How to Talk so Kids will listen and particularly at natural consequences.

If you give her something and she doesnt say t/y take it back and the same for please dont give.
She will soon get the message.

'Oh, I'm sorry, I can't quite hear properly, I'm sure there's supposed to be a 'please' on the end'....

'ah! There it is! Well done!' [hands over thing]

'Oh, dear. Never mind, I'll be here when you're feeling ready to speak to me'. [calmly moving away from the tantrum].

If she's used to getting her own way with her friends, it's tough being the smallest at home, as she's not the biggest. Doesn't mean she gets to manipulate everybody else through fear/noise/tantrums/entitled rages, though.

I've worked in some of the toughest schools. But I still used the 'I can't quite hear you' with six foot plus boys - and it worked. I was also calm and polite to them, my position being 'If you want something from me, ask me nicely, because I don't like being barked at any more than you do.' and 'I am always polite to you unless you are about to hurt yourself, others or damage expensive equipment. I expect the same courtesy back'. And I would tell them to come back when they were prepared to ask properly.

DP worked there briefly and said he really noticed how polite they were to me (and him) compared to their reactions to the barky staff. DP is also very polite to everybody.

The only person that I thought saying 'please' and 'thank you' must have caused physical pain to was my abusive ex. Maybe if his parents had done similar, rather than backing down, he wouldn't have grown up to be such a vile piece of work.

Don't punish your other children for her actions, but it's often possible to choose times when they won't be affected by her behaviour. They're the ones where being softly spoken but implacable have great effect.

I can't not give her her lunch box or put it on the table and end up with her stubbornly refusing to get it as we'd either be late for school or turn up without her lunch

Why not? If she refuses to say thank you the consequences are that she will have no lunch. She won't starve until she get's home. No consequences equals no change in behaviour.

@SilverySurfer really? I think school would call social services and feed her anyway then bill me so what lesson is she learning?!

I wasnt a sorry child either. Definitely always said please or thank you.

Can apologise now without issue. Think you could be right on the developing emotions. Important that you tell her it's alright to be wrong and say sorry. It doesn't make her a lessen person etc etc

Keep up the firm boundaries and no giving until you hear those manners. No discussions about behaviours until you've heard that sorry first. Make it clear that you expect it from her at this age.

not giving her the thing her siblings have would result in a tantrum. Now that's fine if it means dd3 then misses out on going out but it's not fair on her siblings.

I don't see you'd make her siblings miss out. In the example you've given, only she needs to miss out on lunch. What other situations arise where it risks this happening?

Also, with the lunch, I would be proactive - phone the school, explain about the tantrum and say you'll pay for school dinner at a basic level. Then she learns the lesson that she doesn't get what she wants by acting out.

I think you have illustrated that the issue is that you are not really prepared to set and stick to a boundary on this where it will cause you discomfort motherofdragons.

Of course school would not phone social care! Pick up a cereal bar or whatever on the way out and drop that into the office to give her.

Woman up on the boundaries!

School would call ss if I didn't send lunch for an 8yo. I think feeding a dc is a basic responsibility of a parent so for me that's not an appropriate punishment. As you say, school would feed her anyway.

As I said in my follow up post, she struggling with her emotions so I don't think basic cause and punishment is the right approach (hasn't worked previously in this particular situation where it has for other 2 so I am looking for a different approach). Since our chat she's really made a big effort and I've responded to that so I think praising and prompting is going to be our way forward rather than punishment.

It's not correct that there are no consequences in my house so I'm sorry I've given that impression. She just doesn't care and just sees it as the world is against her.

Others seem to pander to her at school or in clubs
Sounds like you are also a bit scared of her reactions and so pander to her too?

I used to just do the very silent, very still ‘look’, it usually worked.

@FrancisCrawford our school takes money 2 weeks before as food is made off site so I can't just rock up demanding school feeds my dc because I've decided to punish her in this way.

I do pander occasionally when I need to be somewhere and don't have time to argue with her. I'm not making dd1&2 miss out on their hobbies because of her as she'd be winning and getting all the attention while dd1&2 suffer. It's not as straight forward.

@SlavesToTheKitchen

I just stand, looking at them saying p-p-p-p-p until they say please. Else I raise the mum eyebrow.

This made me giggle because when my nephew was maybe four, he had drawn a picture for my sister. She got home and wanted to give her the picture. He said 'can you pass my picture?' and I followed your advice above. I said 'p-p-p??' He looked at me like I was the most stupid thing he's ever seen and said, really slowly, 'PIC...CHER!!' I laughed, so I lost 🤷‍♀️

The school won't phone social services if your child doesn't have her lunch - it will happen to a few parents, kids forget.

My youngest has forgotten his lunch a few times. School will either phone me or feed him and put a note in asking for the money. Certainly never called social services.

But she knows you will go get the lunch box for her, so she doesn't need to comply with your request. She knows when she has to comply and when she can get away with doing what she pleases.

She is doing this because you let her get away with it. You have had some good advice on here but are refusing to consider it because it will make your life harder.

You say it’s a basic responsibility as a parent to feed your child. That’s true. It’s also a basic responsibility to teach them manners and honesty.

There are many, many different ways to teach children these things using sanctions or rewards. You will know yourself which will work best for your daughter is but the important thing is consistency. If you aren’t prepared to be consistent (even when it makes your life more difficult) you will have to put up with her behaviour.

Totally agree with the ignoring if there's no please.

My ds was told from a young age that the word please is what switches adults ears on

If she doesn't say thank you I'd ignore. Pretend not to notice. My friends dd use to refuse to say thanks and she asked me to support her doing this and it drove her dd mad as she wanted a reaction. She then began a really overly sarcastic thanks and eventually just said it nicely and naturally.

With things like the ballet shoes whenever ds has accused me of doing something to get him into trouble I had it up massively with a lovely story.
So ....... "oh ds I'm busted. I actually set my alarm for midnight and sneaked around the house quietly to move your shoes from where you were told to leave them and put them somewhere else. Because quite obviously I LOVE wasting time whilst you hunt for them and having to listen to you mouthing off. And of course I LOVE being late for lessons which cost me a fortune as I LOVE wasting money. Now you've sussed me out shall we go"

Kids can be unreasonable little menaces but I find picking my battles works and being just as ridiculous can work extremely well.

Does she have any other behaviour that concern you? Could it me a bit more complex like PDA?
www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx