If you are a nurse or HCP what do you think of the Nursing Associate band 4 roles?

[TravellingSpoon]

Have been reading about them as my local university offers the FdSc course and it seems quite an interesting role, but I wonder if nurses find the role a hindrance, or see them as a way to get nurses on the cheap?

It'll probably be nice to have the added help to an RGN's role (do the dressings or some drugs etc). But if they are going to try and put them in instead of RN's in some places I don't think I'll like it.

We used to have State Enrolled nurses. This role sounds very similar. We also used to have nursing auxiliaries who had a very similar role to HCAs.
I think it has really been a matter of changing names, but I do think that nowadays it is more of a cost cutting exercise because they are supposed to be support staff, not a cheaper substitute for RNs.

In my Trust the ones on the ward do pretty much everything the Registered Nurses do (thin it's only blood transfusions they don't do). I think they should be paid to do their RN and paid the appropriate amount.

If it'a a rebadged SEN, they used to get left in charge of the ward and did everything the RN did, but couldn't move up the chain the way the RN's could.

I just think they will be employed instead of registered nurses at a cost saving for the trust. So a band 5 or 6 nurse will work alongside a band 4 nursing associate rather than 2 nurses as we have now.

I like the idea and think it's a great learning opportunity for nursing assistants but I do think it's a cheap alternative to nurses.

The nursing associates are fantastic, but I dislike the role. I think it is a way of paying less for frontline nursing care, and is unfair.

Where I am they do pretty much everything apart from medication, blood transfusions and IVs.

So I can definitely see in the not too distant future a ward is mainly staffed by Associates and there will be one nurse per ward, maybe two nurses, who just does drug rounds.

Which contradicts the recent government policy of nursing having to be a graduate only profession.

In my Trust they do drug rounds and also IVs, just as I said previously no blood transfusions.

We have the same in Theatres too. Band 4 scrub practitioners. They don't administer any drugs etc though. Ours are excellent, but should have been paid to do their ODP or nurse training and getting paid what they are worth.

Heading towards the American model.

Sadly I think it is a way of getting nurses on the cheap

And if I was considering nursing as a career I’d wonder if it was worth all the debt and stress of a 3 year degree for a Band 5 nursing role when you can do a Band 4 role without the debt. Yes a nurse can be promoted, etc but not everyone is interested in promotion.

I think it's the old SEN by a different name. It's purely a money saving exercise by the government, I don't think it will have any benefit to patient care other than it might encourage people to train for the role who are put off doing the usual training because of the huge debts they will now rack up.
I could weep at the state of the NHS at the moment.

And if they do absolutely everything except administer medications then what a joke it is that registered nurses now have to rack up debts of thousands of pounds purely so they can administer medications and fill in assessment forms. It's a sorry state of affairs.

I worked with enrolled nurses for years and had a lot of respect for them. It was a 2 year training and, I think, a good option for someone who didn't have A levels. I would rather see more staff at this band 4 grade than HCAs used as cheap substitutes for nurses. That isn't fair on the HCAs or the patients. HCAs don't have the training in physiology or pharmacology (among other things) to safely take the place of a nurse.

I agree. But if the new band 4 role are doing virtually the same job then this should be reflected fairly in their pay.

I think you do need to appreciate the extra layers of knowledge and responsibility a R N has. This often isn't obvious unless you are a RN.
I say that as a former band 7 clinical nurse specialist with responsibility for teaching/ training.

However, I don't think nurses, nursing associates or HCAs are paid enough for the work they do.

The issue I have is that if you apply to university to do the FdSc rather than go down an apprenticeship route, you have to do 2 years at university and pay 2 years worth of fees to be forever capped at a band 4 (unless you carry on training at a later date to become a RN) which seems quite a cynical move from the universities.

That is exactly the position ENs were in years ago. Two years training for a band 4 post is reasonable, if the opportunity for further training is there.
The real issue is the abysmal pay rates in the NHS.

Yes it's a cynical move and it's all about saving money. Perhaps if you do the nurse associate training at some point in the future there will be a fast track to becoming a fully registered nurse. I have been a nurse for 20 years and am lucky enough to have a lovely band 7 clinical nurse specialist/practitioner role. I did an advanced diploma back in 1999 and then topped up to degree then masters after qualifying. I was given a bursary. I honestly can't say I would have done my training if I'd had to get a loan and pay fees. And you have to ask why did they scrap the SEN role in the first place?

I am just about to finish my 1st year nursing associate training . It's been a wonderful experience. I do meds, injections (im & sc ) go to MDT meeting etc. We have the option to top up to do our nurse training. Any questions I will try and answer.

We have them on our ward. they do everything a nurse does except IV medication. To me it seems like a cheap way to get more nurses.

But ew does it work on the ward?

Just shows how the wheels turns - I trained as an RGN, and in the 90s, all the SENs I worked with were made to convert to RGN.

I can't help but be cynical.
The government scrapped the NHS bursary which lead to one of the biggest nurse recruitment crises the NHS has seen for a long tine.
Then they introduce a scheme to train more associate nurses that can do virtually everything a registered nurse can do but cap them at a band 4.
The new associate roles are now essential given that the falling numbers of nurses going into university training. That and the subsequent knock on effects of Brexit.

It's purely a way of getting nurses on the cheap in my opinion