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Original poster

If your child attends/attended grammar school, are they exceptionally bright?

52 replies

Faith50 · 07/09/2019 10:00

DS is currently meeting expectations and not exceeding in any one area. We know he has no chance with a super selective grammar school but could, as his teacher put it, get a grammar place if he stays focused. I am now concerned that if he passes 11+ and gains a place at grammar school he will linger in the bottom sets and at worst be asked to leave.

I am not very academic, my GCSE results were abysmal. I pushed to get to university but have always gained average marks in exams. Never enough to get me on the courses I had hoped for.

OP posts:

Mac47 · 07/09/2019 10:06

Many of the children ar our local grammars are not even remotely bright. They are tutored from birth to get in and promptly end up being identified as SEN.

waterrat · 07/09/2019 10:10

Surely you want him there for the quality of the good educational experience. ??? ie. It doesn't matter where in the class he sits - he is getting an excellent experience - good teaching, calm environment, better access to extra cirricular activites?

So much worry about being bottom or top. Who cares. I was bottom in lots of subjects, good at only one and did well in life once I could choose my subjects at a level and beyond (and I went to a selective school))

JoJoSM2 · 07/09/2019 10:14

Speaking as someone who has thought in grammar schools (and comps), if your son is above average but not super bright, I doubt he'd get in. Even if he did, what I found, even the bottom of the bottom in super selective grammars (children needing extra help in small groups) are still the same ballpark as the top 1-2 sets in a good comp.
It's a different story in non super selectives- if you're in Kent somewhere for example.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

General education Secondary education SEN

JoJoSM2 · 07/09/2019 10:16

Mac47, Einstein was SEN too. It's perfectly possible to be very bright but have dyslexia, for example.

Redlocks28 · 07/09/2019 10:23

Speaking as someone who has thought in grammar schools

, sorry.

OP-my kids are all at grammar schools. There were a few surprises when it came to results day but in general it was the people who got in were

Bright and pretty hard working (working well above average in reading and maths-writing was less important).
Had parents who were involved in their education. The ones who didn’t have a clue what was going on but paid for a tutor and smugly talked about it generally didn’t pass in my experience.

JoJoSM2 · 07/09/2019 11:19

taught... I would fail the 11+ with that grammar and spelling

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2019 11:23

“They are tutored from birth to get in and promptly end up being identified as SEN.”
Really? How come grammar schools have a vanishingly small
% of children with additional needs, then?

FudgeBrownie2019 · 07/09/2019 11:29

DS1 is 13 and has ASD and attends a Grammar school. No ferocious tutoring, no cramming, no frantic one-upping over anyone else, it was just a lovely school that seemed a good choice for him. He's bright, yes, and works exceptionally hard to be brighter still and for me (and for the school it seems) his attitude and his pushing of himself is what counts most.

DS2 is exceptionally bright and will likely follow DS1 to the same school. He doesn't have to work anywhere near as hard as DS1, though, and I think if he does go to that school he'll likely have a bit of a kick up the arse because being naturally bright only gets you so far.

I went to a selective Grammar and my parents weren't the tutor-type but took time to be heavily involved in my education and it made such a difference to some of my friends whose parents chucked money at the problem but never really invested their time.

DonPablo · 07/09/2019 11:31

My ds goes to a superslecetive grammar. He is very bright, but exceptionally bright at maths, which is weird because I'm not at all. He was obviously bright enough in the other areas to get a place, and it surprised me to be honest!

One thing I've noticed in response to pp, it's not a calm environment. The behaviour is something that has really shocked me. There's a weird attitude to it, like we aren't going to crush the spirit of these brilliant kids and my ds has really struggled with that aspect of it. He hates all the pushing, and the larks (hiding clothes in the pe changing rooms, unzipping bags as you walk past so all your stuff falls out, breaking kids calculators and stuff like that.)

Why did we send him? Because he was desperate to go. He'd been told how amazing it was, how he'd be eaten alive in the local school and what amazing opportunities he'd have. Not by us I might add, and so far I don't think any of that is true. But, he's there and we're making the best of it.

taxguru · 07/09/2019 11:34

Depends on the area. If you're in a highly competitive area, then only the brightest with years of tuition will get in. If you're in a more normal area, then their intake will be a lot broader. Around here, years of tuition isn't the norm - at my son's primary school, it was the two "top tables" who went to the grammar - about 10/12 pupils out of his year of 45.

taxguru · 07/09/2019 11:35

He hates all the pushing, and the larks (hiding clothes in the pe changing rooms, unzipping bags as you walk past so all your stuff falls out, breaking kids calculators and stuff like that.)

That's not exclusive to grammars - that happened daily at my crap comp 40 years ago!

Original poster

Faith50 · 07/09/2019 11:35

waterrat I have read that if children are struggling they are asked to leave the grammar school.

OP posts:

Original poster

Faith50 · 07/09/2019 11:37

Jojo I know he will be super lucky to get in. Some of the grammars have four children applying for every one place.

OP posts:

PutOnYourDamnSocks · 07/09/2019 11:42

Ds1 is quite bright and quite dyslexic. In lower primary he probably wouldn’t have been meeting objective. Now is a grammar (not super competitive) he is currently doing really well across the board.

He will work hard to better himself. He understands that it takes him longer and is happy to put in the time, (if this hadn’t been the case I would have chosen a different school- it’s got to be fun imo).

I’d say you have a child that wants to learn and will do the work then give it a go.

MildThing · 07/09/2019 11:49

Are you in a Grammar area where about 25% go? I.e the top 25% of ability?

Do you also have good comps in your area? That offer a good education to able children?

What year is he in now?

I would just keep supporting his education, helping him do his best and enjoying his learning. Some support in the type of test the 11+ is so that he has practiced, and see how he gets on.

If he gets in, he is capable of the pace they learn at.

MildThing · 07/09/2019 11:52

“ I know he will be super lucky to get in. Some of the grammars have four children applying for every one place.”

Yes, but unless it is a super selective all you need to do is achieve the pass mark and live near enough,

We all apply to 3 or 6 schools, depending on area, so all schools get far more applications than places, unless they are undersubscribed or there are specific geographical factors.

Africa2go · 07/09/2019 11:58

There are so many variables. I have 2 children at different grammar schools. Yes they are bright, one of them super bright and conscientious, the other a bit of a coaster (we're working in that).

As someone said upthread, it really depends on area. I would say middling, average children dont get in unless they've had lots of tutoring, and will probably need support / tutoring as they get older too to keep up with the pace.

They key thing is that, at least in my experience, they need to be motivated and conscientious. There is lots of independent learning to be done.

As regards the atmosphere / behaviour etc, each school is different. Its not possible to say all grammar schools are calm environments or have behaviour problems. Just because its a grammar school, you cant generalise.

Go to the schools (grammar and non-grammars), see what they have to say. Speak to the pupils, see if you can meet any parents of pupils through say your son's football team or swimming lesson etc, see what they say.

Original poster

Faith50 · 07/09/2019 12:04

mildthing Roughly 20 to 25% attend grammar but children apply in and out of borough. Lots of competition even for the non selective.

No, the comps are not good at all. Generally less than 50% of pupils achieve GCSE grades A to C and this is at the better comps!

Year 6. I have signed him up for 11+.

We cannot afford private education.

OP posts:

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2019 12:06

“o, the comps are not good at all. Generally less than 50% of pupils achieve GCSE grades A to C and this is at the better comps!”
Presumably one of the reasons for this is that the top 20/25% are at the granmars?

WhatAGreatDay · 07/09/2019 12:21

Someone above mentioned Einstein. It is a very common myth that Einstein was bad at school and then suddenly and mysteriously became a genius.

He was a maths and physics prodigy when he was at school. He attended top universities.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

JacquesHammer · 07/09/2019 12:24

DD goes to a very selective grammar. The year she got in you could lose no more than 8 marks across each of the three papers.

She is very bright yes, but she also has the advantage of being extremely good at tests, doesn’t get nervous and has an amazing memory.

She had no tutoring and did no past papers.

JacquesHammer · 07/09/2019 12:26

Just to add, they don’t know their pass levels to get in.

I did, however, know someone who’s child failed and they got told the marks they needed to attain to have got a pass.

Original poster

Faith50 · 07/09/2019 12:31

Bertrand This is the case

Africa2go My ds is not very self motivated. He will not arrive home and spend an hour of studying unless we prompt him. He does not enjoying reading which is very crucial. He is not grammar material and a previous teacher said so. I was just hopeful.

The comp schools offer French or Spanish and some only up to year 8.

OP posts:

ChicCroissant · 07/09/2019 12:31

We had a look round some grammar schools when we were looking at secondary schools (super-selective area, DD at comp not grammar) and they did mention that someone has to be bottom of the class and it can be a shock after being top of the class without much effort previously. If it is an aspect you are worried about (rightly, IMO) then speak to the school when you go round.

Quite a lot of the children in my DD's primary were tutored - DD wanted to have a go at the 11+ but we didn't tutor, just practiced at home. There are heavily tutored children at the same comp as her, in the same sets - tutoring is not a guarantee by any means!

steppemum · 07/09/2019 12:31

I have 3 at grammar schools, and I tutor kids for 11+

My experience is that if he is not working above average at primary, he will not get in. Sorry, I'm not trying to be bearer of bad news, but every child I have tutored has been working above expectations at school, and they have not all got in. I can usually predict which ones won't, but the starting point is pretty much that they are in the top 25% of their class, and they are working at an above average level, at least in some subjects.

Obviously, if your school is in an area where even the bottom of the class is doing well, then the 'average' is a but skewed and he may be doign better than it looks.

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