Does everyone go to University now?

[Newearringsplease]

Now perhaps I'm getting on but when I was at school university was for the really clever kids, those who were going to be doctors, vets, lawyers and teachers. Now it seems every one goes, what's changed?

Ask Tony Blair who kindly came along and devalued it for everyone

That's interesting

Blair set a target of 50% of children in higher education. In spite of being told (not that anyone could ever tell Tony anything) that this could only be achieved by dumbing down massively, it went ahead. Hence a massive increase in university entrants.

However, the rising generation may have now seen through it. My youngest DD who has better GCSEs and A levels than her siblings refused to go to university.

Apprenticeships are gaining in popularity.

Universities are struggling to fill places.

The (cynical) aim of successive governments has been to get young people off the jobless stats. Raising the age at which children can access benefits and insisting that they stay on in school, college, work or apprenticeship may have produced slightly better educated young people. However, then giving access to higher education keeps them off the stats for another 3 years.

Not cynical, no...

God, yeah, we don’t want those thick people being EDUCATED! How will we ever cope with the change?

University should be for the cognitively Elite top 10% as it used to be . Now it's over 50% so if half the population are below average intelligence and half above. I'm assuming that means we have a lot of dumbos in higher education?

It’s definitely dumbed down now.

The problem is now that degrees are expected for jobs which used to employ people at 18. So many young people are saddled with debt from degrees which don’t put them any higher up on the employment spectrum than we used to enter without degrees in the past.

Lots of my peers joined a big insurance company which had national headquarters in our town. Many of them did extremely well. They didn’t need a degree. Now they wouldn’t enter at the bottom without one.

However, some companies are wising up and offering to 18 year olds again. Media is one area which is doing this more - they recognise the importance of getting representation for the young on board, and the irrelevance of a degree for the right people.

Blair wanted to increase access - or at least used that as an excuse to introduce tuition fees and loans to cover them (£1k back then and would only “increase with inflation”. Thanks, Tony /s
It wasn’t the great equaliser it was spun as, because of course it wasn’t about increasing access (working class kids used to be awarded grants, not given loans - actually everyone was given a grant, I know someone whose family are very well off, he went to Cambridge and unbelievably was given a grant) and as ever, affluent kids just had their fees and living costs paid by their parents, whilst poorer kids got to take on a load of debt and work their way through to supplement the loan (which will then impact on their ability to buy a house further down the line.) It was always about getting rid of free university education.

We still need to increase access to those who would struggle financially, or for whom uni isn’t on their radar because historically it’s not what people in their family do. Social mobility has stalled in the last couple of decades.

With more people attending, the value of some degrees was diminished over time (and some offerings and establishments were never valuable in the first place.)

People are slowly wising up; I see more apprentice schemes than a few years ago. Although lots of entry level jobs still by default require a degree, I hope this lessens over the next decade or so. Anecdotally, a couple of friends have bright kids who have chosen apprenticeships over uni; one in engineering, one in cyber security so decent career paths. If my own kids want to go to uni I will support their choice but will also show other options.

I think companies are short sighted in expecting a degree for every role; especially these days when people often switch careers.
I don’t have one (no choice, had to leave home) and have worked my way up to my current job; my partner has a lowly HND and again, earns very well in a senior role advising other companies. A degree is not the be all and end all.

No, most people don't go to uni now. If you look up the stats it's about 27 percent of the school leaving population. So two thirds do not go.

Those two thirds do other things, from unemployment, to unskilled or basic entry level work, to apprenticeships.

It is way higher than it was, clearly, depending on how far back you go.

If those twenty seven percent who do go though, there is obviously a large percentage who maybe should not have.

The myth that fifty percent actually go is erroneous and simply that, a myth.

Now it's over 50% so if half the population are below average intelligence and half above. I'm assuming that means we have a lot of dumbos in higher education?

It doesn't really work like that with intelligence though does it? Is there really anyone with 0 intelligence?

Add to that are skills. I have a really high IQ (I know that's a crude measure) but I love puzzles so maybe that makes me good at the tests. On the other hand I'm crap at music.

Another factor is that so many jobs now need a degree, things like nursing used to have their own qualifications and exams but now you have to take a degree.

Bojo has just announced a similar idea for the police.

No. Currently 43% of the population go to university. Its unlikely to rise above that.

Back when 'only clever people' went to to university was a also a time when we had an elite higher education system.....so it was essentially clever, rich people ( with some exceptions)

I always find it weird when I see these discussions on here. I'm Irish and a very high proportion of Irish school leavers go to university, which obviously wouldn't have been possible a few generations ago. I've never seen this discussed as a negative. Education opens doors. And minds.

Tony may have set a target but it was never achieved.

A large propoprtion of the population (more than half) struggle to achieve the whole '5 gcses including maths and english' and the country massively underfunds FE for those people and has put very little thought into meaningful education for those not heading to university.

Exactly Mindy I really hate the anti university rhetoric.
Higher education can be transformational.

And yes it is perculiarly english to want to keep rationing access to education and seeing this as positive

Not everyone but I agree with the sentiment of the OP. I'd prefer fewer people going, and those who go having grants and no tuition fees, followed by a graduate tax.

We undervalue those who do appreticeships or other jobs that do not need a university degree.

The problem is a degree is no longer sufficient to access many top professions. These days I think many more people go on to do masters and further qualifications beyond uni than before. So Tony achieved his objectives keeping them off the stats until later but with rising debts for them.

@Mindy university in itself isn’t a negative, but the system as it stands isn’t ideal. Young people end up massively in debt with a degree that still doesn’t guarantee them the top higher earning jobs. Education beyond degree level is now becoming more common and traditional school leavers jobs are now more often requiring a degree to enter.

It's amazing how many people become experts on higher education when they know very little and in fact have just bought into the many, many, myths surrounding HE.

Not everyone goes to university

The 50% target set by Blair was changed a number of times and was never met

It's unlikely that the percentage of the population attending university will ever rise above 43/4%

The graduate jobs market is bouyant (sector dependant obviously)

Traditional, non- vocational degrees are still very valuable. Over 60% of graduate jobs don't ask for a particular degree subject. For example, some of the big accountancy firms specifically target history graduates.

Back when 'only clever people' went was a time when only 6% of the population went to university. Quite clearly more that 6% have the ability to succeed in HE.

Moving from an elite system to a mass system does have its it's issues but it does mean that there are opportunities to attend university regardless of your background and socioeconomic status - and that is a wonderful thing.

It was 28% of school leavers and only 17% of those from a disadvantaged background.

I must admit that it does feel as if most young people go to university. Especially on forums lie mumsnet, where it seems that nearly everyone's DC goes, will go or have been.

DD is 19 and will go in September. All but one of her school friends are at university. When she worked in retail most of the staff were students at the local university,

My 17 year old ds doesn't want to go. He's doing a Level 3 BTEC in engineering and wants to get an apprenticeship at the end if he can. I 100% support that and think it's a thoroughly good idea. I don't have any concerns that he doesn't want to go to university. I am pleased he knows what he wants to do and has found something he enjoys which will lead to good employment prospects at the end.
Both his father and I are educated to post graduate level - Both of us obtained our degrees and Masters while working - paid for by employers.
I really feel for kids who will end up with such vast amounts of debt after university - there is also so much pressure these days achieve high academic results, it's all extremely competitive. It seems to be making a lot of young people very miserable.

University education being opened up hasn't devalued it but rather increased access for the genuinely intelligent. When only 10% or less went, it wasn't geniuses who got degrees but the rich, the posh and the well-connected, which is generally as far from being the same thing as you can get. Princess Eugenie would always have got a place despite being unable to achieve the necessary grades, but in the past the only way bright working-class and underprivileged kids would have entered university would be as cleaners and cooks to look after her. You could also use the examples of other royals or even PM (shudder) Boris Johnson who, despite having the best education money can buy, only managed a 2:1, making him a perfect example of this: digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

He sounds very sensible Ella.
I hope he is successful.