Tips for a 5 year old who WILL NOT SLEEP

[JessicaJadex]

I’m going out on my mind with my 5yo boy. He has been a nightmare for going to bed recently. It takes him around 2-3 hours of arguing, excuses, tantrums and constant in and out of bed before he actually gives in and falls asleep. His behaviour during the day has been the worst it’s ever been (I’m talking psycho level), and I know it’s because he’s not sleeping enough. He needs 12 hours to be tolerable, but he’s getting around 9 at the moment and it’s draining me. I’ve had to take him home from activities with friends every single day since he broke up from school. I am losing the will with him- His behaviour has meant no one really wants to meet up with us and I’m alone with him 24/7. I don’t know how I’ll survive the next 5.5 weeks with him! Any miracle cures? He currently has a black out blind, and we do the usual story/bed routine at the same time each night. He has a calming night light and he won’t sleep without an audio book but I’m tempted to take those away if he carries on! SOS

Any SEN? If not I would take the hardline...If you aren't in bed trying to sleep in X mins we are not doing Y tomorrow.
And mean it! Follow through a few times and he may stop playing up.

swimming is always good for knackering them out.

also audio book? quietly on in the background (not loud) to help lull him off....

sorry just saw he already has audio book!

what about trying some very gentle music instead see if that works?

Can you put him back into school routine?

Does he need the mental stimulation that school gave him to wear him out?

Are you sure he definitely needs 12 hours? I know all kids are different, but mines needs 9-11 hours I would say and it varies most nights.
How’s the wind down routine? Mines needs a good hour of stories, chatting, faffing with toys, then that’s it. It’s into bed cuddle for a bit then I leave the room. Straight back to bed for multiple get ups, no anger, just a simple ‘it’s bedtime now’. If we’ve had too much exited running around or tv before bed, then this makes winding down harder.

Is there anyone else who would take him for a night? Kids can be angels for grannies! And give yourself a night off before you crack up.

Try the book "The Rabbit who wants to fall asleep" - available from Amazon. There others about a tractor and a sleepy sheep. It works wonders - my five year old is asleep before the end of the story everytime.

My none sleeper gets told he needs to go to bed. Hes not told he has to sleep, but he has to leave the adults for grown up time or sleep. We wont play the arguing /excuses game. He can have cuddles (about 5 min), but then I leave. Kicking off after that gets his door shut.
He's older than yours. But currently, aged 10, he gets sent to bed at 9pm, and isnt allowed to switch in his light til 6am. No waking adults until 7am.
Good luck. Weve basically told him we cant make him sleep, but we can enforce rest.

No SEN formally diagnosed but we have finally had progress with an outreach worker who believes he needs support in one way or another. But this bedtime thing is relatively new (I'd say the last 6 months progressively getting worse recently).

If he doesn't get 12 hours, he is literally the worst behaved child ever. He then falls asleep in the car and wakes up even more horrendous. Today was spent being punched and kicked, things thrown at me, name calling, running away from me at a busy family fun day etc. I am just mentally, physically and emotionally drained from him. He is not a nice child to be around and that really pains me to admit!

How do you react to him being violent and throwing things? At 5 there’s no way on earth I’d be accepting that from him, it sounds like he’s pushing to see just how far he can go and carrying on at bedtime is part of that. How do you normally discipline him for poor behaviour?

You can mimic bedtime and getting up during term time, you can also have a plan for the day - for example my two really struggle without the school routine so during summer we always get up and go out maybe to the park or if I need to go to the supermarket. We’ll do a planned activity after lunch - baking, pottering in the garden, going to the cinema/visiting folk. That way the day is broken up a bit and is predictable to some degree.

It’s hard but I wouldn’t be making allowances for his lack of sleep - at 5 a natural consequence of not sleeping is still having to manage your behaviour while feeling tired.

I totally sympathise as if my daughter doesn't get her 12 hours her behaviour slides. I can only imagine what it's like after 6 months. Harder to break.

Someone recommended swimming - agree it's tiring. I would also suggest other sports. He may have lots of energy that needs an outlet for him to be truly tired. Plus even mental simulation. My Dd honestly is better with new books to learn at bedtime, new things to try during the day (I mean simple stuff like handstands - praise goes a long way fir effort), garden - bugs to explore, plants to be watered etc. Dd honestly thrives on helping to even if it takes a lot longer I generally know later she'll be tired so sleep well.

We are also late night snackers for her because if really is hungry she wont sleep whether thats shes growing or just a bit peckish still. So leftover dinner she didn't manage first time round - If they don't want that not hungry - then 'boring' options butter & toast, porridge, musili etc.

It's a phase. It will pass. At that age they often have vivid nightmares and/or an interest in death. I would assume he needs reassurance rather than punishment. Read a story, put some music on and sit with him for 20 minutes. No conversation, warn you'll leave if he doesn't try to sleep. He is only 5.

I agree about needing reassurance for sleeping.

Today was spent being punched and kicked, things thrown at me, name calling, running away from me at a busy family fun day etc.

This behaviour however needs to be addressed before it gets even more out of hand, while he’s still young.

Believe it or not I'm trying everything remotely possible for the violent behaviour. Nothing so far has worked. It's easy to say just nip it in the bud, but when it's your child and you've tried everything you can for a very long time, it's not as simple as it sounds.

Will try all suggestions re. Sleeping. Thanks all X

We have had success using a fitbit-type band with a sleep tracker (a mi-band, they are very small) then rewarding enthusiastically for the desired amount of sleep.

rewarding enthusiastically for the desired amount of sleep.

Sorry, but that's mean. You're rewarding them for something that they can't control. By all means reward for staying in room until 630 or whenever, but short of drugging someone you can't make them sleep. Everybody has nights the don't sleep for whatever reason. You're saying if your child has a nightmare and wakes up, then thy won't get the reward?

Jessica take one thing at a time. Personally, I'd try to reassure him at night first on the basis that if he's slept well, he'll be better behaved. But it is hard when you have a child like that. What is important to him? To use as a "if you hit, no tv tonight".
Be aware of how you use language. For us saying "if you behave nicely you can have x." Was meaningless because behave nicely is too open ended.
A bit unorthodox, but we had a designated cushion that he was allowed to hit. Hitting, kicking anyone or anywhere else was punished and he was reminded the only thing he is allowed to hit is the cushion.

Could you borrow a weighted blanket from somewhere? Just to try out? They work wonders for lots of sn. If he needs reassurance it might do the trick.

Have you tried some lavender pillow mist? This may help.him to relax and eventually drift off to sleep.

You sound exhausted yourself OP. Is there anyone who can give you a break in the day as the more you get frustrated the more it feeds the behaviour of the child.

I do hope he can begin to sleep soundly.

Both my kids do very well with a sleep music track off YouTube. Also lots of physical exercise and no screens 3 hours before bed.

I know you said he's not assessed for SN yes but once we had ours diagnosed we got melatonin prescribed and all the bedtime problems stopped. It's a hormone rather than a drug so doesn't help if he wakes in the night but bedtime is now a 20 min process rather than 90 mins of in and out etc. The routine is very strict as well. Bath with lavender, everything done with ticker timers so there's never a surprise request etc (managing transitions it's called).

Really super ‘strict’ routine.
Tea (no E numbers/ crap for pudding- have it before 3pm if you want to).
Half hour outdoors- kick ball, run round park- really active.
Bath
PJs and story with lights down.
Weighted blanket in bed (no more than 10% body weight).
Quiet music/ audio book.

As for day time, have a look at social stories. Before you go somewhere- have a read of expectations/ what will happen. Once there, remind using phrases from book. If it isn’t fun/ working out, bail. Go home. Remind of what needed to happen to stay.
Also ensure that activity is achievable. Going for a shorter time may be more achievable. If party/ event is 2-4, maybe go for last half hour so ‘succeeds’ and finishes with everyone else, rather than leaving early.
Also, try and find positives- it can be easy to slip into negative cycles. It’s fine to do something you can both enjoy.

Excellent post by @Cantchooseaname

I have experience living this also and this is what saved me:

1. No screens - zero
2. No tv after 5 pm
3. No junk food / bad preservatives - lots of whole plant based made from scratch meals
4. Exercise - and lots of it - hiking walking swimming playground - at least 2 hours a day
5. Strict bedtime routine - write it up in the way with times against it and make it a game to get stuff done by certain times - get him to buy into it and help
6. Brown noise in room (if you have Alexa or some type of HomePod they can do this easily) - otherwise a fan works
7. Star chart with rewards for the right behavior

Kids are like Labrador puppies - in the absence of sen or other medical issues - they need wholesome food, lots of love and attention, and a strict routine with plenty of exercise

Yes to @redexpat suggestion if weighted blanket - saved my sanity many many times

1. No tv after 5 pm, no screens, no electronic gadgets.
2. Building games (bricks/lego/K'Nex), colouring, drawing, stuff that requires hand-eye coordination in the run up to bed time.
3. Keep the lights dim downstairs in the run up to bedtime.
4. Bath, teeth, straight into bed with a story.
5. Keep language simple and consistent, don't be drawn into arguments, keep returning him to bed with a simple "bedtime" if he keeps getting out.

I swapped an audiobook for a single track of soothing music that plays on loop, an audiobook meant she staying awake longer.

The behaviour during the day that you describe, sounds to me as if there is something else going on. You said "no SEN formally diagnosed," but that an Outreach worker (how come? Where from?) suggested he needed "more support?" I would be investigating further, I think.

Could anxiety be an issue? I ask because some of your descriptions sound a bit “fight or flight”. If that’s the case he needs to be helped to calm down before addressing his behaviour because he literally won’t be able to hear and process what you’re saying.

It would be very worth looking at Dan Hughes, who writes a lot about children who have experienced trauma, and fostering/adoption. His concept of therapeutic parenting is excellent not just got adopted children in that it looks at building relationship rather than controlling behaviours. Definitely worth looking at.