The good kids and the bad kids

[MonroeM]

Probably a daft title and not sure if in the right section on here (am still a newbie and this site is HUGE with so many areas to post) but bear with me please.

Today I was on a train (not cross country just local line) reading my newspaper and sitting with 3 others in facing seats. All calm and peaceful until 2 little yobs aged approx. 12 came and sat across the aisle. They were wearing filthy trainers and both put their feet on the seats. I flicked one of their trainers with my newspaper and told them to take feet off the seat. Others had noticed this too but were saying nothing.

The cheeky little so and so told me not to touch him and gave me the stare. His mate called out "got a problem?" and I stared back but said nothing. I knew if I reacted it would get worse but it got worse anyway.

They both began flicking paper at me and throwing bits of chewing gum from the packets they had and they were making stupid comments about me. The passengers next to me gave me knowing looks but they didnt want to intervene. I could have gone to the driver's cabin and told him but I was only two short stops away from getting off so stayed where I was.

As I got up to get off they began throwing more stuff at me and some girls began telling them off so I have no idea if they got abuse after I left.

One guy who got off with me asked if I was ok and had a moan about kids like that. I was upset inside but tried not to show it. I am no mousey little old woman.

What I really wanted to do was wring their scrawny little necks but had I touched them I would be the wrong doer.

An hour or so later I was shopping and a young boy called out to ask me something from across the road. I could not hear what he was saying due to the noisy traffic. He came over and explained he was walking his dog with his friend and the dog pooed on the pavement and they had no doggy bag. Did I have a plastic bag or something please? This lad was so polite. I helped out and that was that.

So in one afternoon I met two little s and two aspiring gentlemen any mother would be proud of.

End of my news for tonight.

I am amazed that people on here seem to feel that an adult flicking a 12 year old’s shoes was in any way comparable to assault or breathtakingly rude
I would thoroughly ashamed if my child put their dirty shoes on a seat let alone were cheeky or throwing things at an adult.
OP you did nothing wrong and I am sorry that no other adult supported you. I would have if I was there and absolutely if it had been my own child.

Unless you whacked the kids with the newspaper, it doesn't sound remotely like assault and it is not seriously rude. I'f I'd done this when I was young (a long time ago) I'd have had my shoe flicked and a verbal admonishment. Another adult would have loudly agreed with the 1st adult who did this, and I would probably given them a really dirty look, muttered something to save face but had done what I'd been told. There is a huge problem with so many kids attitudes these days because they are nor brought up to respect other people, as many teachers will readily agree. We certainly dont want to go back to the generation before me where a teacher would whack you across the knuckles for poor writing, or the priest would hit your leg when he walked passed simply because you didn't go to church these are abuses and absolutely should never be allowed to happen. But something has gone wrong in bringing up kids. Thd idea that they are precious darlings which cant be challenged or pulled up for rudeness is appalling. No , I wouldn't have flicked the shoe of an adult. ThAT is rude and potentially very dangerous. And I wouldn't have flicked the shoe of the child, not because its rude, but because it has the potential for danger in today's world. But, sweeping generalization here, children are growing up without the boundaries needed for a society that works together. Children are individuals and of course they have rights but sometimes they have to think of other people and that's becoming rarer.

Kids didn’t respect adults a generation or two ago, they were scared of adults.

You handled it "badly"

I hate the title of the OP. The kids on the train needed an adult to take charge and provide boundaries, not flick them and purse their lips. They probably aren't "bad" kids FFS. Sure, their behaviour was bad. Either deal with it or get a guard to.

Labelling kids at that age as good or bad is a self fulfilling prophecy that any decently educated adult should understand.

I'd be disappointed in myself rather than the kids on the train if I were you OP.

Even if the OP had have spoken to them about the trainers instead of flicking them, I imagine she would have been on the receiving end of some abuse. So many people of all ages simply do not have any respect for anything or anyone anymore, and are so quick to retaliate aggressively, even if your request is perfectly reasonable.

I’m a Secondary school Teacher, and the distinct lack of discipline, and the quick escalation to intimidation and violence within schools, and wider society really frightens me. I worry so much for my DD’s growing up in this kind of society. It was bad enough when I was a teenager, but it’s something else altogether now.

My parents were born in England in the 1950’s, and always tell me very fondly that if they, or anybody else were in public and exhibiting antisocial behaviour or worse, they would’ve been dealt with by a member (or members) of the general public, a neighbour, or a transport or shop worker for example. No one would sit back and be a bystander. They tell me that it really was the status quo for adults to intervene, regardless of the age of those behaving incorrectly, and for these to respond by stopping their behaviour without fear of any kind of reprisals to those who had intervened.

In some ways, society has changed for the better (LGBT rights, and freedom to be who you want), but in others, it really has changed for the worse, and I just cannot envisage it ever reverting for the better sadly.

Kids were scared of adults yes, that was true. We were scared to a large extent incase that adult told our parents on us, and that happened a lot. I'm not from the generation that got randomly hit by adults for nothing, and corporal punishment in school was confined to proper issues, not because the teacher was having a bad day and was pissed off and just felt like whacking g the kids. So my generation mostly got a row from adults and then a row(or smacked) from out parents once the adult tattled on us.but there have been so many injustices in the past again st children and I can totally see why things needed to change, but the current policy seems to be a complete reversal and rudeness from so many kids is appalling. I say this as the aunt of 7 nieces and nephews . Each are lovely. They are kind to their old auntie and polite. But have I seen then out and about, with their friends, on trains etc? I know it wasn't my nieces who sat in the same train coach as me and treated the other passengers to verbal pornographic scenarios about what they did/were doing to do later that night. Hard to tell from the make yo but they looked about 16. No one told them off. They got away with being vulgar simply for their own amusement, to make the other passengers uncomfortable knowing that no one would say anything. Back in my day someone would but few of us kids would have do e what these girls did. but I'm not sure it would have been fear if adults that would have stopped most of doing that above scenario, and it might not have been respect, but just a sense that it was not something that should be done .

I once put my dirty shoes on a train seat as a kid. I remember a thin elderly lady coming to take the seat, and she beamed at me and said "I'd like it very much if you didn't put your shoes on there..."

I shifted pretty quickly. She brushed the seat off, gave me a smile and sat down. She was so clean and precise in the way she spoke, I was wholly embarrassed.

I've remembered that for 20+ years.

I don't think it was assault or anything close to it to flick their shoe with a newspaper, I just think it was almost guaranteed to get a defensive and unpleasant response. Whereas a firm but polite request to take their shoes off the seat might have resulted in them being embarrassed and apologising, or even shuffling about muttering to each other but not being outright aggressive. Or it might have resulted in exactly the same bratty behaviour, who knows. But the flicking was almost certain to end up in retaliation because no one likes being patronised like that.

I have a well brought up polite quiet 12 year old. I'm as certain as I can possibly be that she would not verbally abuse anyone on a train. But I'm not certain that she wouldn't put her feet on a seat because she is 12 and sometimes thoughtless and doesn't pay attention to what she's doing. If she did it, I'd like someone to tell her not to. But I'd like them to approach her on the basis that she has done something thoughtless and give her the chance to put it right, not approach her assuming she is a good for nothing brat with parents who have never disciplined her. That's all.

All calm and peaceful until 2 little yobs aged approx. 12 came and sat across the aisle.

Kind of sounds like you’d made your mind up about them from the second they got on. As for flicking them with a newspaper? Why?? You decided to bypass normal verbal interaction and went straight for a physical approach.

I may be very wrong, but I suspect you had already decided you didn’t like the look of these two yobs and you were determined to “show ‘em”. I also suspect you wanted validation from the other passengers.

Yes, they behaved dreadfully but you were determined to put them in their place and both of you were showing off.

I have a well brought up polite quiet 12 year old. I'm as certain as I can possibly be that she would not verbally abuse anyone on a train. But I'm not certain that she wouldn't put her feet on a seat because she is 12 and sometimes thoughtless and doesn't pay attention to what she's doing. If she did it, I'd like someone to tell her not to. But I'd like them to approach her on the basis that she has done something thoughtless and give her the chance to put it right, not approach her assuming she is a good for nothing brat with parents who have never disciplined her. That's all.

Really well put and I wholly agree!

I think adults do need to step in more and address poor public behaviour in children / teens. We won’t always get it right, but it is essential that we keep trying. Giving up and letting society slide is definitely not the answer.

There are other ways to gain cooperation, not just fear

Shouldn’t have flicked their feet. It’s still unwanted physical contact.

If this sort of behaviour is considered yobbish I dread to think how you’d feel on my old council estate.

isabellerossignol well put.

If I hadn't noticed that my own child had put their feet on a seat I'd be apologetic and friendly if another adult, or indeed child or teen, asked/ politely told them to take their feet off the seat, but my heckles would rise if someone flicked them with a newspaper. You set yourself up as an arsehole if you flick at strangers with a newspaper. Just speak next time.

I have no idea why you didn't just ask them nicely to put their feet down... :/

Its not much good to society if children are lovely when surrounded by parents but obnoxious brats when left alone. They can be brats/rude etc because no-one pulls them on it.

Just like the men learing at a woman on the other thread where the agreement was that we should call all men out when they lear.

To flick or not to flick but those 12 year olds belong to us. That makes me ashamed enough to say flick all you like.

All the teachers I know would have phrased it as a polite request.
‘Would you mind taking your shoes off the seat please?’ in a positive tone of voice and a thank you if they did. If they didn’t, then there’s nothing else to do but accept.
Why escalate a confrontation you will lose?

Why made you decide not to speak them rather than flick them with your newspaper, OP?

Did it not occur to you that your action might have been seen as provocative?

Did you stop to think that maybe the other passengers didn’t intervene because they thought you’d handled it badly?

CCquavers are you happy to be flicked at yourself? If not why not?

Absolutely people should politely pull up others on antisocial behaviour, but flicking at people just because they're younger is the same obnoxious attitude of entitled superiority as leering - it's based on a belief one class of person (men, adults) has more rights and is entitled to touch and humiliate the less powerful class of person (women, children). Encouraging adults to flick newspapers at children encourages this obnoxious dynamic.

Everyone should feel able to politely but firmly pull others up on antisocial behaviour, nobody has an entitlement to intimidate, humiliate or touch strangers unnecessarily.

End of my news for tonight

End of my story for tonight.

HTH.

The majority of responses are completely in line with the culture of child rearing practices. Its no wonder so many young people do not understand normal social boundaries as they are taught and see that manners and respect for others are no longer applicable.

For all of you lovely parents who proclaim how well behaved and polite your kids are just get on a bus which is full of school children and see how well behaved they are. Instead of pretending "my kid is perfect" you should accept that at times your kid will misbehave and it is your job to make them understand how unacceptable this is, and ensure boundaries and discipline are in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.

I do agree flicking someone is not how to deal with this but as normal so many posters are spectacularly missing the point and missing out on having a real conversation about how to deal with the increasing issue of badly behaved kids and head in the sand parents.

doodleygirl for thousands of years older generations have believed that the behaviour of the youth of the day is increasingly bad. Do you have any quantitative evidence that finally in the case of the current generation it's actually true?

@doodleygirl

Maybe the OP should have taken your advice and had a “real conversation” with the children sitting opposite her, rather than deliberately provoking a similar response from them with her actions.

Of course manners and respect for others are important. But that’s just the point. If you don’t show manners and respect for others you won’t get it.

you can flick your own kids trainer off a seat as you already have a relationship with them, but you dont physically touch another person like that unless you are up for them starting back on you.
Its not ok that they were so rude back, but they were in a group, already being a bit lairy, so you were stupid to ignite a situation rather than kindly ask them to tone it down. Most adolescents respond far better to respectful talk and reminding them of manners, than immediate confrontation or aggression

I agree you shouldn’t have flicked his shoes

You wouldn’t do it to another adult, so you shouldn’t do it to kids

But they were rude

I won’t confront anyone. I’m a petite person and likely to hurt easily.

My dh on the other hand, has no problem telling people (adults and kids alike) to pack in the behaviour as he has the means to back himself up.

We had a group of kids trying to vandalise our property a few months ago.

My dh went out to tell them to pack it in. They reacted with Johnny big balls response of “you can’t touch me my dad will ave you”

He went out there, got straight in the faces and told him to bring his dad round then.

They legged it and funnily enough no parent appeared.

Yes it was threatening behaviour, but it was either that or smashed windows as police wouldn’t have got here in time

I don't agree that the majority of responses are in line with child rearing culture. I think there is currently a split in child rearing culture and this is present on this thread as well.

One side believes that children should defer to adults and that it is perfectly acceptable for an adult to treat a child/address a child in a way that would be considered rude if it were to be to another adult, particularly when this comes under the heading of correcting behaviour/telling off. The assumption is that the process of learning how to behave is in progress for children, and complete for (most) adults. The definition of respect is about respecting the hierarchy in place - children must respect adults which means to recognise them as their superiors.

The other side believes that people (regardless of age or adult status) are equal, without hierarchy and that adults should not necessarily expect this kind of deference from children. Of course children are still assumed to be in the process of learning social norms, but so may adults be and it is considered polite to address children with the same respect you would another adult, albeit perhaps with more child friendly language, and an understanding that the child is not necessarily acting outside of social norms due to insolence, but most likely due to a lack of information or experience. The definition of respect is treating others as valued equals, and people should respect each other regardless of age, so while children should respect adults, so should adults respect children.

It is a bit confusing because both sides use the term respect with completely different definitions.