Any thoughts on tonight's Panorama ( Labour Party and antisemitism)?

[BoogleMcGroogle]

I understood there to be a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, but it really bright home to me just how institutionalised and acceptable this has been allowed to become.

It's pretty clear Corbyn doesn't care enough about antisemitism to take any meaningful action or check how his behaviour and views might have contributed to this situation.

And the statements put out by the Labour Party HQ pretty much dismissing everything as anti-Corbyn conspiracy, while wheeling out some gormless and confused shadow junior minister, were unforgivable.

I'm pretty sympathetic to the ideals of the Labour movement, but couldn't in all good conscience lend my vote to a party with a leadership that's let this happen.

So... (going slow for the novice here) my understanding so far is:

There are two strands or sources of anti-Jewish feeling (in the LP - and in wider society).

1. is linked to the Israeli/Palestine situation in the middle East, and the Labour Party has always traditionally supported the Palestinian cause. As such, some people blame all Jewish people for the Israeli / Palestinian situation and are verbally abusive to any Jewish people - irrespective of whether they actually support the Israeli government or not.

1. arises from wider anti-Semitism, the older meaning of the term which means to be anti-Jewish because one believes that Jewish people a) have some set of identifiable undesirable traits that are inherent to "Jewishness" AND / OR b) that the Jews are involved in some global conspiracy to rule the world (financially) through various secret cabals and plots, which may or may not be driving modern capitalism and all its evils - and the Labour Party is traditionally opposed to capitalism and all said evils. And therefore some LP members suspect all Jews of being part of this secret world-domination-through-financial-control cabal?

And various anti-Semitic LP members have been recently emboldened by Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader as he personally has been very vocal for his support of the Palestinian cause in the past (see point 1) and have been much more outspoken in expressing their anti-Semitism? And the LP response has been to intimidate, shut down and bully the people (Jewish and not) that were meant to investigate these allegations.

Am I up to speed on this now?

Yes - that's a bloody brilliant synopsis!

What shocks me- I didn't watch the programme and I don't follow politics- is that there is a big enough sub culture where this is happening for it to seem ok in that context. What I mean is- surely it's obviously unacceptable and therefore doesn't get given any oxygen? There will always be the odd person with unacceptable opinions, but they ought to be seen as clearly odd and not acceptable in the mainstream. How can this have got so far?

That's about the size of it @BogstandardBelle

I saw John Macdonald on the TV this morning saying antisemitism was a general problem in society.
Actually, John, no. Not really not as much as prejudice against other groups. But, fuck me, it's a massive problem in the Labour Party and that has emboldened people more widely.

Or whatever his surname is - McDonnell?

bogstandard that's a really helpful synopsis. It's also a useful way of understanding how those two types of antisemitism interplay ( so I'm thinking, for example, of the narrative about who influences foreign policy in the Middle East and how that might occur).

I'm disappointed to hear John McDonnell peddle the argument that there is nothing 'special' about Labour's antisemitism problem, but that it is a societal issue. While antisemitism of course occurs in other contexts, the increase in complaints in the Labour Party suggests that there had been an ( at least perceived) legitimisation under the new regime. And secondly, I expect the Labour Party to be better than other bodies at recognising and challenging oppression. Otherwise, what's the point of them?

It's not quite true that the LP has traditionally supported the Palestinian cause. The LP was instrumental in setting up the State of Israel as a Jewish homeland and very critical of groups like Hamas for suicide bombings, blowing up buses and pizza parlours. I remember seeing documentaries about Hamas training child soldiers. It was fashionable among Young Socialists to spend a summer working on a kibbutz. Israel was v definitely the right side to be on.

The 6 day and Yom Kippur Wars, when all the surrounding Arab states combined to attack and destroy Israel seem to have been airbrushed out the history of the conflict, along with any understanding of why Israel refuses to retreat to borders which put them at a strategic disadvantage so long as Hamas and Hezbollah (Iran) have the stated objective in their charters to destroy Israel and all Jews everywhere. As time has gone on, the Israeli government has become more and more right-wing to reflect concerns over security, most recently the threat from Syria at the Golan heights.

It's impossible to have a civilised conversation with the Hard Left on the Middle East. As far as they are concerned, Israel is an imperial outpost of the Great Satan, aka the USA. There's no recognition at all of the part the Palestinian leadership (split) have played in their country's plight. Corbyn, as we've seen in photos of him on platforms with Hamas and Hezbollah and 'being present but not involved' in wreath-layings for the masterminds of the Munich massacre, is very much a member of this faction. If I were Jewish, I'd be very worried about his foreign policy if he ever got into power - well, even as a non-Jew, I'm worried. Pro-Russia, anti-NATO.

One thing's for sure - the Israelis have lost the PR war, especially over Gaza. But from their pov, the fence and tight security at the border crossings has meant no more suicide bombing of civilians.

I'm not an expert on this and hope that someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Just wanted to say that there was a time when the Israelis were the good guys, David against Goliath. And no one was threatened with deselection for being a member of Labour Friends of Israel.

It is still interesting to see that non of the usual mn labour activists cohorts have commented on this thread.

I know huff-po took the wind out of their sails but this thread is conveniently silent considering how political posts that are remotely anti labour/corbyn are usually flooded with people standing by their username.

Something that should be remembered during the next GE is the cries of Tory/GCHQ bots because of differing opinion, because it will happen.

Not sure I get you justanotherlurker - are you referring to Tory or Labour bots?

But I am surprised at how quiet this thread is.

This problem is not going away and cannot be ignored.

There is no tory bots on this site, it is flooded with Labour activists, the huff po article did take a lot of wind out of their sails.

This problem is not going away and cannot be ignored.

In the run up to the next GE it will be, there will be a new line of attack and any reference to this will be either bullet pointed arguments from CLP or cries of being easily led by MSM

It's why MN has become comical for political debate among the wider internet community.

Although not Jewish myself, I have close friends who are Jewish and it always surprised me the undercurrent of fear. It was as if it is in the DNA to be hyper aware of dangers and volatility of situations. As the PPs mentioned, they don’t shout from street corners that they are Jewish, indeed just try and avoid the subject if possible, avoid attracting attention to themselves.

I have always been quite surprised by that, but now I am thinking they are right to feel like they do, on edge, even now in the 21st century and post Holocaust. Never safe, and the memory of what happened to the previous generations always there.

It is deeply tragic.

Two of the whistle blowers are taking the next steps:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/13/whistleblowers-to-sue-labour-as-antisemitism-row-deepens

Labour's response - to try and smear the whistleblowers - will backfire massively.

It was a pathetic, immature response which says so much about the current leadership and I think will paint them in even a worse light with the general public (42 percent of whom now apparently think Labour has a serious problem with antisemitism according to a Yougov poll).

The Labour Party is destroying itself.

Can labour come back from this?

I've just driven round england and Wales and universally everyone I've spoken to has wished they could vote snp.

Would the lib dems pull back a bit on gra reform the way the snp have if it got them in?

Would you all work towards promoting the lib dems as a viable choice?

I feel like it's not enough to vote differently. It has to be something that has them running scared and actually makes them want to change.

I feel like the lib dems already have a decent chance because of brexit.
Not in Scotland but we are like 5% of the vote eh?

Goodness, I wouldn't vote SNP.

But Labour now seem to be a socialist party with all the worst traits of socialism - authoritarianism, groupthink, censorship, cult of leadership etc.

The Labour Party is destroying itself.

Exactly so. And while it's turning in on itself, it's also failing to do its most important job - to hold the government to account by offering a viable and credible alternative government-in-waiting. It means we all suffer as a result, regardless of our party allegiances.

The Labour Party is indeed rotting from the head. Let's not forget Jeremy Corbyn's own words in 2013:

"One is that they don't want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don't understand English irony, either.”

That's right. By "they", he was referring to Jews.

Has this sub group of the Labour party always harboured these antisemitic beliefs?

And yeah... I think what people were really saying is that they don't feel they have a choice in England (although would consider plaid cymru in wales).

On my road trip I went down a Google hole looking up the Marc dutroux trial and one of the things I didn't clock at the time was how corrupt the socialist party had been in terms of their funding. It's hard to accept that left wing parties can be utterly morally bankrupt when you want to associate them with soft fluffy things like sharing and standing against oppression.

I've been involved with lefty /stop the war groups since about 2002 and while I always found socialist worker entryism to be a pain in the arse I've honestly never heard any 'category 2' antisemitism (eg conspiracy theories).
I would throw someone out of any party I was involved in for that kind of comment about British irony. It's vile.

singinglily exactly so. That quote of Corbyn's uses one of the 'classic'antisemitic tropes of Jewish 'outsiders on the inside'. That sort of comment should see you sling out on your ear, not leading the Labour Party.

Most people I talk to about this see the Labour Party in its current state as dead in the water. But what amazes me is that the couple of Corbyn loyalists I'm friends with are willing to engage in the most extraordinary moral acrobatics and doublethink to justify Corbyn's past and present antics. One is a well- respected and terminally woke professor of sociology who really should know better, but these Corbynite loyalists seem utterly blind to what's happening here. It really does feel like a nasty little cult.

I'm just watching this now.
Labour are a disgrace

Another whistleblower in today's Sun Times. He says that a group of Corbyn staffers suddenly arrived, scooped up hundreds of complaints and removed themselves to a separate part of the building. Meanwhile the new head of the dept told them to downgrade sanctions, so what would previously have been 'requires investigation' was now dismissed with a written warning. So that's how resolution of cases increased fourfold (or eightfold according to McDonnell today) after JF took over.

Corbyn wants the BBC to remove the Panorama prog from I-player because it was biased. No one putting the Party's case. Well, that's what happens when the Party refused numerous requests to take part.

Glad to see that 20 members of the Tribune Group (founded by Michael Foot), including Yvette Cooper, have signed a letter backing Watson in condemning the Party's response.

Shocking. That chimes with what the guy on the programme said about Seamus Milne - when he was advised to tackle this seriously by dealing swiftly and firmly with any accusations, Seamus just laughed. It's just about the publicity. They don't think there is (or care if there is) an actual problem.

I watched it opened mouthed.

I'm also shocked that there's not a huge discussion here. Normally Labour/Corbyn defence threads get a lot of traction. Compared to that it feels like tumbleweed.

I read Twitter a lot. I'm disgusted that the main energy is currently into blaming Tom Watson for pretty much everything.
I see anti-Semitic undertones on there everyday when talking about Margaret Hodge, Luciana Berger etc.
Tracy Ann Oberman and David Baddiel are worth following. However, despite a few outraged tweets the more moderate MPs are remarkably quiet. I'm hoping it's because they're planning or considering the future.....but who knows.

I'm not even a labour voter. I want to be a labour voter. I've been following this nasty cesspit of a soap opera online for ages now and I keep thinking it can't get any worse. But it can.

I think that, other than following what Luciana Berger had said, David Baddiel on the Frankie Boyle show was the first person I saw speaking frankly about it all, and thankfully the other comediens on the show were supportive of him.

Three weeks ago, Jennie Formby announced that all sitting Labour MPs had just two weeks to decide whether they wished to stand again. This would involve reselection. Six decided to call it a day.

Last Wednesday, after much anticipation, the Panorama programme was aired.

On Friday, Momentum announced a drive to help Labour members deselect MPs (source: The Guardian) in the quest for "more diverse, younger, working class MPs". Presumably younger and more working class than private prep school and grammar school-educated 70 year old Jeremy who spent his childhood in a manor house in a naice village.

In the meantime, Tom Watson who leads the Future Britain group within the Labour Party, is under attack from all sides for daring to ask Jennie Formby exactly what is going on with the investigations into anti-semitism. Even though, as deputy leader, it's his job.

The timeline is interesting but what I'm reading from this is that if "decent Labour" are going to do the right thing and split, they'll have to be pretty quick about it because the Labour Party is getting ready to leave them. Not quite sure where that leaves "decent Labour" members and voters - after all, brand loyalty runs deep for many.

A couple of years ago, Joe Haines wrote an interesting article in the Telegraph in the aftermath of the overwhelming no-confidence vote by Labour MPs in Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and the multiple resignations from the shadow cabinet. He set out a blueprint for exactly how, legally and within the party constitution, decent Labour MPs could take over the party, its name, brand, structures, funding, membership, even status as the Official Opposition, leaving JC and his closest colleagues isolated on the backbenches. All it required was discipline and nerve.