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Are you racist?

141 replies

cloudni9e · 05/07/2019 23:07

Watching a documentary called The Event: How Racist Are You with Jane Elliot.
And it is making me so angry how completely ignorant the white people on it are and it's reminding me of the thread I saw earlier on today on mumsnet. Please mumsnetters, check your white privilege if you are white and remember it's not enough to say you're not a racist. You need to be actively anti-racist or you are part of the problem. Racism IS violence.

OP posts:
RubberTreePlant · 07/07/2019 02:18

I do get intimidated by groups of loud young white people too but not to the same extent, I think this is because I’ve always heard the message in one way or another that black people are bad or up to no good, will rob/attack you etc. I never voice it out loud but I definitely feel and hear it in my head it’s both Prejudice and racist but it’s something I try to suppress.

Here's an idea; TALK to them. No amount of navel-gazing and inner dialogue will fundmentally change your biases. Engaging with people and seeing their humanity might.

AmmoniteTermite · 07/07/2019 02:21

Thank you EnthusiasmIsDisturbed, it means a lot that even just one person takes notice, thank you.

An assumption based on what?

Exactly, people instantly assume we are ignorant and racist ourselves. The op seems to think me completely ignorant of issues faced by non white people in the uk despite being an oppressed ethnic minority myself.

AmmoniteTermite · 07/07/2019 02:47

when you say that racism is part of your every day life, how? Is it obvious/blatant things, or more insidious things that I could be playing into without even realising it?

Both. Examples are schools teaching absolutely zero about the history of travellers in this country. We are not mentioned. As a result my child’s teacher ended up calling her a liar when she brought in brought in photos of her grandparents during WW2. The teacher did not believe my child was half traveller and also that travellers ever served during the wars.
This thinking damages our children, makes them think we/ they are nothing, that no positive we do will ever be recognised. Shop staff following me/ DH around shops, being refuse holiday accommodation when they realised we were travellers when with my family, my child seeing signs that say “no travellers allowed“ (yes in the UK today!) members of parliament making statements such as “Does my honourable friend accept that the public view of the community (travellers) will continue to be shaped by the appalling behaviour of the minority, who bring absolute chaos to their own communities“, the media and their openly hostile and racist stories about us, members from both our communities being hostile towards us etc.

AmmoniteTermite · 07/07/2019 03:18

Education, social, health and justice services make little to no attempt to meet our specific cultural needs resulting in poor (actually shocking) outcomes across the board. We are told to settle but when we do we are told to fuck off (my own parents, in 2006 attempted to settle and but had a petition against them by the neighbours to get them out based only on their ethnicity, this happened once before to us when I was years around 8 years old).

Both domestic and international reports are damning when it comes to treatment of travellers in the uk, I implore people to actually step back and try to take a balanced and fair view when it comes my community. To not dismiss us, to belittle our very real struggle, to blame us for our own suffering without taking note of the part played by society.

Anyway I’ve drunk too much and am emotional so shall be going to bed.

Karwomannghia · 07/07/2019 06:54

Ammonite do people always know you’re a traveller just by looking at you?

YeOldeTrout · 07/07/2019 09:51

You've made zero progress towards anyone understanding what you're saying, OP.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/07/2019 13:41

Do people really think if a young man who was form a traveling community and a young middle class man were in court for the same crime (let’s say credit card fraud) the jury would not make assumptions and both would been seen in the same light and revive the same outcome

Both might be able to afford good lawyers but how they will be judged will be very different

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/07/2019 13:44

AmmoniteTermite I am sorry are being dismissed

It’s not a competition there are many forms of racism. My Vietnamese friend has constant remarks made to her all very sexual and about assumptions of women from Asia but that ok as it’s a joke 🙄 and well she is attractive

SoVeryLost · 07/07/2019 16:20

@Mummoomoocow & @pusspuss9 I disagree as a mixed race woman. I was subjected to islamophobia even though I’m not Muslim. I was totally confused when it happened.
@AmmoniteTermite you may not be racist however I have met many travellers who are. This is outing but at school I was picked up by my neck by a boy from the traveller community because he didn’t want a black girl standing behind him.
@OhTheRoses that first sentence is very I’m not racist but... but all of the examples you have given are prevalent in a particular socioeconomic group regardless of race.

Back2Black · 07/07/2019 16:56

I don't consider myself to be racist but having brown skin, I've experienced racism from both white & black people.

Racism is inbuilt into our day to day language. I usually go about my day, not thinking about my skin colour. But it's brought to my attention 3 or 4 times a week, that's my normality.

OhTheRoses · 07/07/2019 17:26

@soverylost I object to illegal and anti-social behaviours regardless of who performs them - that is not racist it is cognizance of whole societal norms. There are no arguments that make such behaviours right.

My father, grandfather and grandma's parents arrived in the UK as refugees. Admittedly all white. Geman Jewish, Russian Orthodox and Irish Catholic. I contend they assumed the mantle of "white privilege" whatever that might be because despite arriving penniless they conformed, worked hard, put in more than they took out and were never disruptors or regarded themselves as above the law. 1860's, 1920 after escaping via China in 1917 and 1939.

Back2Black · 07/07/2019 17:35

ohtheroses while privilege isn't about what you have described.

OhTheRoses · 07/07/2019 17:48

What is it then.

Back2Black · 07/07/2019 18:00

Do you mean 'what is white privilege'? Goggle is your friend here.

Do you think your father, grandfather & grandma's parents would have been treated differently if they were black, hardworking, penniless & conforming?

I sure they would & that is no disrespect towards your family.

Back2Black · 07/07/2019 18:38

Oh The Roses not sure if you were referring to black or white people when you were talking about 'gangland stabbings, the regular use of marijuana, a culture of where men are not reliable fathers....' I think those characteristics are prevalent in both black & white people.

OhTheRoses · 07/07/2019 18:46

I meant anybody engaged in those activities.

Back2Black · 07/07/2019 18:59

So. It's not really relevant here on a thread discussing racism?

OhTheRoses · 07/07/2019 19:02

All the articles I'm finding are rooted on Peggy McIntosh's 1989 work which is now 30 years old and US centric.

I think in the UK there is a massive emphasis on equality and many organisations have positive discrimination policies.

onceandneveragain · 07/07/2019 19:10

OP "no black people can't be racist because white people aren't an oppressed group it's just not a thing" - aren't you being inherently racist in this statement by suggesting that white/black are the only two races?

Understand if what you're saying is that white people can't be victims of systematic racism in this country even if they can individually be treated badly by black people (e.g. white gf mocked by bf's black family), but you can't say that no black person in any circumstance can ever be racist, be it against white people, or asian/any other non-black ethnicity.

re: the thread you're mentioning, IIRC the poster actually asked 'was I treated differently due to my race' FWIW I agree that it was likely in the circumstances described that this was due to racism on the staff member's part, but as the other posters were saying that there is no way of telling for sure, which is just stating a fact. That's exactly why it's so hard to prove discrimination cases. Doesn't mean that the poster shouldn't complain to HO if they wanted, nor does it invalidate the poster's feelings, nor the fact that they undoubtedly have suffered as a result of in/direct racism throughout their life, just that randoms on an internet forum given one perspective of an incident can't possibly say with 100% conviction 'Yes this happened because of x.'

OhTheRoses · 07/07/2019 19:33

I have a fairly junior member of staff who is black. She is oppositional, abrupt with customers, lazy and disorganised. Her line manager is tearing her hair out. She needs to be on performance management but we are pussy footing around her ticking every box and dotting every i, and putting in twice the support as we would for a white member of staff. She's tricky and entitled and takes constructive feedback badly and I can smell the discrimination claim coming. Sadly I can sense she will complain in ten years' time that she has never got beyond an admin grade and it's because she's black. It won't be, it will be the attitude and the opppsitional stance. I would pull up a white member of staff and tell it straight. I dare not say it as because the potential accusations scare me.

BiBabbles · 07/07/2019 20:01

Personally, I don't think it's helpful to pin racist or anti-racist as identities we can pin on ourselves or others, especially in an ambiguous situation where none of us can tell another person's intent. It's more useful to identify behaviours rather than make it about the person as a whole. So, yes, it isn't enough to just say one is anti-racist because it's not an identity one can just claim, but neither is "checking privilege" enough of an action either as that does the same amount of fuck all.

But then I'm a mixed (Mestizo) immigrant and not sure how much of myself would be part of the problem as the whole of me has the same opinions and actions. How I'm read by others differs widely from people doing gestures and doing that slooow ridiculous talk as they assume I can't speak English to people being surprised when a British accent doesn't come out when I speak - there is also plenty of other evidence that there isn't this bullshit idea of static privilege we can be constantly aware of.

Personally, I only care when someone hates me for how they think I look has the power to do something harmful with it, until then it's their problem and no skin off my nose. I have no desire to hyperanalyse other people's intent, make Whiter people question or have to show their anti-racist credentials or be afraid to correct me for fear it will look discriminatory, or pretend McIntosh's work from the eighties that as a previous poster said most of this is based on - where most of her 'invisible knapsack' has more to do with being a majority in a particular situation than race - isn't an oversimplified analysis that is only still around because too many lazy people keep dragging it back up over more modern works as it helped start a bunch of jargon that too many people think makes them somehow more ethical educated people. It doesn't, it just makes you as stuck in the past as a hypothetical someone still using a brick mobile.

Also, while reverse racism isn't a thing, it's only possible to say that people don't discriminate with White people if you treat White people as the default. If we move beyond the '80s and stop treating White people as default human and recognize people can discriminate positively and negatively towards members of a group, then it isn't difficult to see that people do discriminate when it comes to White people and that sometimes, yes, it's negative discrimination by those in power in favour of other people. Shocking, I know, but outside of jargon-laden parts of academia that recently got it's ass handed to it in the humanities paper scandals and lazy journalists riding along beside them, many of us work with nuance & mixed shades rather than black & white.

cloudni9e · 07/07/2019 20:14

Your second paragraph is what I meant and I did amend what I said I think anyway @onceandneveragain

OP posts:
KeepFuckingOff · 07/07/2019 20:28

RubberTreePlant I’m not going to engage with any large group of people who are being loud and intimidating in a public place regardless of what colour they are. My point was that I don’t like that a fear black groups in this context more than I do whites, it’s my own internal bias I’m talking about.
I engage with black people socially and in my job on a daily basis I don’t need a lesson in their humanity.

Back2Black · 07/07/2019 20:39

ohtheroses try treating that member of staff just as you would any member of staff.

Back2Black · 07/07/2019 20:43

I sure you can 'smell the discrimination claim'. Give your head a wobble in the meantime.

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