Would this make you suspicious?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

Feeling a bit sensitive about this so please don't wade in - just trying to get some perspective.

DD is 4.5y old. She has attended a private nursery since 6mos, FT or 4 days/wk. From the age of 6mos-4y they raised no concerns about her. Parents' evenings, handovers etc, no concerns and always within usual age range for EYFS assessments or slightly ahead.

On day in Jan this year they said to me she had behaved oddly that day. She had blanked out when staff spoke to her and become quite upset. This was unusual so they would keep an eye over next few weeks. Fine.

Over the next few weeks she was sometimes quiet and subdued, and sometimes didn't listen. Nothing else.

On Feb 21 I was rung and asked to leave work early due to concerns about DD. They wouldn't say what. I rushed there as soon as I could, only to be handed a tablet which showed a video of her making jerky movements with her arms. They told me they wanted me to make a GP appt that week with a view to seeking a dx of autism. Then she could have a support worker brought in. I asked, to support with what, exactly? They couldn't really say.

We compromised by sending DD to a private paeds psych who specialises in autism dx. She is taking her time, meeting with us, with DD, interviewing nursery staff. She will then write a report indicating whether there is enough to push for a dx. Recently, the nursery have started pushing, asking when will her report be ready, will it be next week, when are we going to start approaching GP for referral etc.

I couldn't really understand all this urgency. DD is behaving in a non-concerning way at nursery at the moment.

Then, I found a recent Ofsted report for the nursery. It is dated Jan this year. They have slid from good to requires improvement. One of the things they need to improve is demonstrating that they have supported individual children's needs esp those with additional needs. They had to produce an interim report for Ofsted by Feb 27th and another by July this year.

Suddenly, I am wondering...... is DD a manufactured case study for their Ofsted?! Am I crazy to even think along those lines.....?

Err wtf are they doing mentioning autism?

Jerky movements and being “zoned out” sound more like other neurological disorders than autism!

I’d be telling them to calm down and wait patiently for the paeds report, and that things will happen in time. Don’t let them railroad you into anything. If you have had no concerns previously I wouldn’t let them be pushing for some diagnosis.

Sounds like she's having absent seizures to me.

I am not medical it's just my opinion based on first hand knowledge of those symptoms and subsequent diagnosis.

I wouldn't automatically come to the conclusion of autism with just this. Stick with your instincts

A family friend had absences. Like seconds of 'stop' button episodes. Epilepsy which you would miss if you weren't looking. Keep a close eye on your dc. Keep a diary then see a GP.

If she has otherwise been fine for 4years and now is exhibiting jerky movements and zoning out I'd be concerned about other neurological disorders such as epilepsy, rather than autism.

I'm confused why the nursery is pushing you into this. You need to have in depth conversation with the paeds team, and tell the nursery to back off.

I'd be removing her from the setting I think. Once I'd been totally honest with myself about my daughters behaviour. This could be autism. Could be seizures. Could be a young child just doing something bonkers like they all do at times. How the hell do they know?

They're right to flag stuff up to you. Providing that she's not a risk to herself or other children there then that's as far as their involvement should be

Takenher to the GP

Okay to be clear, the zoning out happened once, in Jan. Not repeatedly.

She sometimes doesn't listen and will "not hear" when asked to put her shoes on, stop playing, eat a sensible dinner. Her hearing magically reappears when chocolate buttons are on offer

So she is not having repeated absent episodes - there is nothing to put in a diary!

As pp said this sounds like absent seizures to me.

OK, for any diagnosis of anything there needs to be a history to report to the GP/paed.

If there is no history, ie this is not happening regularly, then I m not sure what they are supposed to diagnose.

I am also confused as to why you by-passed your GP, and went straight to a psych?

To be clear I'm not looking for an internet dx - no one can diagnose a child over the web although I will certainly bear the absent seizure thing in mind.

What am I asking is, given the timeline, aibu to think nursery are concocting a narrative for Ofsted using DD? It seems a horrible suspicion but their urgency is so weird.

Every day when I pick her up, it's "she's had a great day today! Played with x and y, ate all her dinner, did such and such activity!" From room staff.

Then room leader: "when will you have that report? You'll be able to get a cahms referral then."

Me:

Steppemum precisely because there was little evidence. I didn't think an NHS GP would realistically be able to do much with the info we had.

However, a private paeds psychologist could spend some time with DD, explore more fully, see if anything else might be up.

My first thought was epilepsy. And absent seizures can be for just seconds. It's worth getting this checked as well. Do you have a copy of the video?

If it's neurological, a psychologist isn't going to help. Try your GP, they will be able to refer.

Yes I have a copy of the video. She is not being absent during the video. The absence episode happened one time, in Jan.

The video is from 4 weeks later. She is sitting with some other kids and there is no sound but it looks like she is talking or singing. She is happy and engaged, with an animated face. Not "absent". She just makes some excitable jerky motions with her arms. That is literally it.

to think nursery are concocting a narrative for Ofsted using DD?

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Nursery have alerted you to a possible problem, the GP is a very basic starting level, yet you haven't done it because you think they are making it up for Ofsted

Do you notice any episodes at home?

I think it would be a good thing to change nurseries. Just to rule your suspicions out. Regarding the possibility of absence seizures only a doctor and tests could tell you for sure. Keep a close eye on her for these.

I don't think they'd manufacture it - they might want the process speeded up so they can include it in the report

they might want the process speeded up so they can include it in the report

But even so, trying to 'speed a process up', for their own ends, would lack integrity. The process has to be thorough which takes time for good reason.

When my youngest was at nursery (over 30 years ago) it coincided with the headmistress striking up a friendship with a psychologist - not an educational psychologist - who arranged for her to have 3 places held every year at a hard to access special needs primary school. They used this as their quota to fill & the psychologist, who wasn't employed by the education authority for the nursery, "diagnosed" 3 children every year as having special needs on the flimsiest of reasons. The head teacher even went as far as cancelling those children's primary school places that their names had to be down for from birth to be guaranteed. My ds was one of their projects & it took huge effort to counteract their misguided zeal. Both the Head & the psychologist could see nothing wrong with what they were doing & it took tough intervention from on high to have it ended. I'd be very wary of the nursery's motives tbh.

either there is something more that nursery are not being clear about, and if so, you should ask them.
Or, they are being weird, yes!

She sounds like a normal pre schooler to me. Surely all children that age have to be told several times to do something, or, are so engrossed in what they're doing they don't respond. There could be all sorts of explanations for her behaviour in the video. Sounds like she could have been singing to herself and doing accompanying movements.

Obviously bear in mind the absent seizures, but if it hasn't happened before or since then I'm not sure if I'd be overly concerned.

I'd be suspicious of the nursery too. Don't let them push you into anything.

justanswerthephone

Sorry that is not what is going on at all.

The nursery said they thought DD might be on the spectrum but had in our opinion a thin evidence base. So we took her directly to a highly experienced paediatric psychologist who specialises in autism diagnosis. That is very clearly taking seriously what the nursery are saying. Even though we are not really convinced as of yet. The psych we are seeing is a clinical lead in a large NHS teaching hosp and also has a private practice. If the nursery are right and DD has autism she will be well placed to work with us as a family, help us access support and gain appropriate referrals. If DD is not autistic then the psych can say so with some degree of authority.

My suspicions have arisen because AFTER starting to engage with the psych, I found this Ofsted report where the dates line up with all the times nursery have "raised concerns" and suddenly I am wondering, has the nursery been exaggerating or pushing for things to happen in a particular timeframe because they are under the cosh from Ofsted to prove they are "supporting dc with additional needs"?

Knitting

I have never observed her having absent episodes beyond getting engrossed in something on the iPad or deciding she doesn't want to leave softplay/ swimming/ her friend's house.

Yes the video looks like a kid getting excited to me. Her movements are jerky but she doesn't generally make those movements and surely most 4yo can be unco-ordinated from time to time?