You know- if I could get women to change one thing they routinely do.....

[BertrandRussell]

......it would be to stop us being self deprecating all the time. Stop calling our podcasts “Scummy Mummies” and “Guilty Feminists” Stop apologising- unless we’ve actually made a mistake. Allow ourselves to take up physical and virtual space. Stop being accommodating and appeasing. Stop thinking about how to make other people feel better all the time! it’s possible (usually) to be nice and kind without being a doormat!

You know, I knew you were going to say 'self-deprecation' before I clicked on the thread.

I agree 100%. It looks harmless at first glance, but it's not, in that it prevents women's voices being heard and normalises women themselves jokily characterising themselves as incompetent and not taking their own opinions and preferences seriously, and often translates into quite damaging workplace things like not negotiating starting salaries or not applying for promotion.

Have you ever listened to the Guilty Feminist? So far away from needing advice on how women should behave....

I am trying to convince my (female) university students to stop sending me essays with a covering email saying they're crap. It's an uphill battle, but then I have been trying to stop preemptively apologising for my work for around five years and I still occasionally find myself doing it, so I have sympathy!

I'm also trying to stop my constant inane chatter to (baby) DS turning into a stream of self-deprecation: 'oh look at silly mummy what did she do that for, silly mummy'. That's also hard.

Argh, meant to say 'female (university) students', not '(female) university students'. I'd tell the boys not to do it too if they did it, but they almost universally don't.

My similar one thing would be to stop using the word Just, especially in work situations.

I just wanted to check...
Just a quick reminder...
Can I just ask...

One small word and it weakens the whole sentence. It's in the same category as "I'm sorry to trouble you, but". Men don't do it, but it's ingrained in most women!

“Have you ever listened to the Guilty Feminist? So far away from needing advice on how women should behave....”
Yes I have. Lots of good stuff- but why “Guilty”? And why “I’m a feminist but....” ? Why not “I’m a feminist and....”

Oh yes- “Just”!

And how often do you answer the phone and a woman you know says “Just me” or “Only me”........

Artichoke, I run a research group with a brilliant academic who is a 'just'er. It's become a longterm joke that she sends me important emails/ letters etc before she sends them out so that I can take out all the tentative, self-deprecating and indirect expressions.

She knows she's doing it but can't seem to stop.

Ah - ArtichokeAardvark - I have a single late 1970s/early 80s edition of Cosmopolitan to thank for never using ‘just’ in that way. Definite lightbulb moment in my late teens.

Unfortunately I seem to have found limitless other ways to be self-deprecating over the years.

I've never thought about whether I do this but I'm guessing I must because I can already see DD (10) doing it. So now I'm feeling guilty and inadequate for not setting a better example, obviously! I agree though, we shouldn't do it and it's something I think is worth working on for me and DD.

Ageee!

I used to start every email to people who were late doing their bit with "sorry to be a pain, but" or "sorry to chase but".

I've worked my way up to "Just a reminder xxx was due yesterday"

Madness how women are raised to apologise for everything - I hope it's getting better in general be sadly I haven't seen much evidence of this in the workplace at least.

This is interesting because I'm trying very hard to stop saying 'sorry'. I'm British so it's going to be slow going but I'm trying to only say it, if I bash someone for example or if I really mean it.

I feel like I have to apologise for just existing and I won't do that any longer.

I now edit my emails before I send them and remove the "sorry"s and "I think", "I guess" etc. Makes me feel a lot more assertive and less apologetic.

This was my lightbulb moment: www.filmsforaction.org/articles/famous-quotes-the-way-a-woman-would-have-to-say-them-during-a-meeting/

Another email scanner here... getting rid of the justs makes a huge different

I used to start every email to people who were late doing their bit with "sorry to be a pain, but" or "sorry to chase but".

I actually disagree with this being a bad thing. If I'm late with something at work it's 100% not because I've been sitting around twiddling my thumbs and absolutely because I can only do one thing at a time and other tasks took priority. And I greatly appreciate someone acknowledging that by saying 'sorry I know how busy you are but I do have to chase this up'. And so I give others the same courtesy. The fact that men don't do it is irrelevant. We can role model firm but polite.

I'm a "just"-er in work emails. This thread has given me the impetus to stop dropping the "softeners".

Although I agree, Diemme, that it's not a bad thing to acknowledge that other people are busy. Communication doesn't have to be male-style to be right.

I always write 'soft' emails and it's not something I want to change about myself.

I get better work out of colleagues/clients I'm nice to than ones I've been snippy with. I'm not a snippy person.

If men want to write brusque emails they can have at it, I'll prioritise my responses appropriately.

If I could get women to change one thing they routinely do it would be to stop policing other women's behaviours, opinions and choices.

You don’t have to be brusque. You just have to not apologise for your existence.

And I greatly appreciate someone acknowledging that by saying 'sorry I know how busy you are but I do have to chase this up'.
Actually me too. I prioritise soft chasers!

It’s interesting that we encourage women to drop the soft approach rather than encouraging men to insert more softeners.

It’s a bit of a shame that people think the opposite of self deprecating is brusque or snippy. Surely you can be polite and nice without putting yourself down. Make it about the other person -acknowledging and that they are busy and appreciating that you are asking a difficult thing, for example, without apologising for doing your job?