When the bully says they are being bullied

[DaisiesAreOurSilver]

12 - 13 year old girls at secondary school. Not many girls in the class but they have been close and get along well. New child, Anna, joined at Christmas and they welcomed her into the group.

At half term things within the group started to get unpleasant and there were fallings out, exclusions and spiteful actions. A couple of parents were worried about this and cross-examined their daughters. It emerged that Anna has been stirring the shit with the others. Telling lies, saying things have been said that hadn't, complaining to teachers about things that didn't happen. Setting them off against each other. Threatening them if they didn't do as she said.

When they realised what was happening the girls were very upset but there were apologies and they made up, as best they could. They decided to have nothing to do with Anna because she couldn't be trusted.

Now Anna's mother is complaining that she is being bullied and excluded. The girls admit she's being excluded but with good reason. The class teacher knows what went on but is trying to persuade them to include Anna again but they won't. They have been forced to do some activities with her in school but refuse point blank (with the support of their parents) to have anything to do with her outside school.

The mother won't leave it alone and is up at the school every week. One of the other parents discovered the reason Anna left her previous school was because of exactly this behaviour.

The girls are fed up with being made to look like the bad guys by the teachers. Shouldn't the teachers just lay off and stop trying to force things?

What Anna was doing is social bullying: spreading lies, excluding one member of the group, telling tales to teachers. It is sly, manipulative and vile.

We had an Anna, also in Year 8, I told DD to have as little to do with her as poss. Like your Anna, her mother also thought she could manipulate things, force the girls to be friends, rewrite what happened. Which seemed somewhat familiar.

catching yes I was a teacher for a long time. And it completely depends of individual circumstances.

What OP has described is not one child singling out another child and systemically bullying them for six month. She has described a child with very poor social skills and unable to nurture healthy friendships.

This group of children are not hiding in cupboards. However they are being encourage to exist in pack mentality in which when some one else gets the boot - and they always do - the cycle will continue.

Encourage the children to be polite and cordial to her, so that the teachers have nothing to complain about. But damn straight there's no way I'd want my kid being mates with the little psycho. I mean are you sure it's true about the previous school stuff? It sounds like this kid needs a mental evaluation.

Anyway 'keep your distance from her but try to be polite and don't ignore her, you don't have to be her friend but you do have to be polite (Unless she starts bullying you again in which case, drop the b*tch like a sack of potatoes xD)'

If I actually was sure of the whole 'she did this manipulation in the last school and that's why they left it' story (eg: heard it from the horses mouth) I'd probably go round to her parents and tell her to keep her damn kid away from my daughter tbh though. But that's probably not wise.

I'm 26 now but can remember the exact same thing happening to our friendship group in school. Coincidentally this bully was also called Anna. Very manipulative girl who was as sweet as pie to any adult but absolutely vile when their backs were turned which meant they would never believe us when we told them what she had done or said. I still know of her now (through Facebook mainly) and surprise surprise she has no friends. My Mum is a friend of her Dad and he was telling her 'Anna is getting bullied at work' so she has taken her nasty, bullying ways with her into adulthood and still managing to play victim. They're dangerous people it's best to stay civil but well away from them. Your daughter doesn't have to be friends with anybody she doesn't want to be.

I don't see it so much as ostracising but as the girls wanting to protect themselves from further hurt.

What OP has described is not one child singling out another child and systemically bullying them for six month. She has described a child with very poor social skills and unable to nurture healthy friendships.

Now you are minimising her behaviour to try and make your point. Her poor social skills include physically attacking girls who won't obey her. It's far more than poor social skills. It was systematic planned bullying. If you were a teacher you should realise that. I saw it several times in my teaching career.

The girls are polite to her when they have to be but refuse to mix with her outside school. Seems fair to me.

Seems fair to me too.

The school has no right to control or have input on activities that occur outside of school (with a few limited exceptions that don’t include this situation.) I would just stick with that line and ignore any efforts to influence out of school events. But.... can you be absolutely sure the girls are being polite and civil to Anna in school? At that age a bully’s power usually comes from making a child feel different, disliked, friendless and alone. One isolated child who is universally ignored can’t usually hurt a popular child who has the security of a group. (I know OP mentioned physical attacks in a later post but it sounds like the problem is primarily the exclusions and spiteful actions she mentioned.) If everyone in the group is ignoring Anna she’s no longer a threat and it can very very easily tip in the other direction. It’s a very powerful feeling to be “part of the group” and often girls who are lovely and pleasant individually can behave very differently in groups. There are many ways to manipulate and ostracize another child without overtly breaking the rules and without setting off parents’ alarm bells. I know this from my work with children of that age but also because decades ago I was part of a group like that. I’m not proud of it. My parents and my friends’ parents had no idea.

I’m not suggesting that your child is a bully, OP, but keep in mind that social dynamics of girls that age are complicated. As I said above I was at times very cruel to other girls when I was young. I assure you I am not that person now. They are children and even Anna should be allowed to change and grow without being gossiped about by parents and judged by third hand accounts of alleged past misdeeds. Instead of banding together and swapping stories about a pre-teen you should encourage your DD to think independently and model ways to avoid getting caught up in groupthink.

Instead of banding together and swapping stories about a pre-teen you should encourage your DD to think independently and model ways to avoid getting caught up in groupthink.

Not my DD the DD of a friend who asked advice from me as a former teacher. I think you are making this into something it really isn't. No groupthink. Just a group of girls who discovered that one of their number was deliberately causing problems and physically hurting some of them. And their decision not to let her have that power any more.

They are still having their normal squabbles between themselves but within the range of "normal". No planned trouble making. They are perfectly polite to Anna in school and if asked by a teacher will partner her in an activity.

That's the best the school can hope for, I'd say.

As the victim of school bullies for all five years of secondary school, resulting in life-long poor self esteem, anxiety and depression, I am appalled that @Cottonwoolmouth thinks any bully's victim should have to be friends with their bully!!

"The girls are polite to her when they have to be but refuse to mix with her outside school. Seems fair to me."

Seems fair to me too, and the most the school should expect of the girls who have been victimised by 'Anna'.

Now you are minimising her behaviour to try and make your point. Her poor social skills include physically attacking girls who won't obey her. It's far more than poor social skills. It was systematic planned bullying. If you were a teacher you should realise that. I saw it several times in my teaching career.

I agree. Minimising this kind of behaviour is awful.

Cottonwoolmouth
yes I was a teacher for a long time. And it completely depends of individual circumstances.

What OP has described is not one child singling out another child and systemically bullying them for six month. She has described a child with very poor social skills and unable to nurture healthy friendships.

Only if you want to look at it that way, there are several other options available.

This group of children are not hiding in cupboards.

but they are being manipulated, gas lighted and generally bullied.

However they are being encourage to exist in pack mentality in which when some one else gets the boot - and they always do - the cycle will continue.

Or they are being encouraged to stand up for themselves and their friends and not put up will being bullied.

i have no doubt that if this girl wasn't being called out on her behaviour she would be regularly cycling through the friendship group with each child treading on egg shells not wanting to be the next victim.

Where have I said they have to be friends STDG?

And this isn’t five years of bullying of one specific child. I think your life experience is clouding your view.

But I’m not sure what it is now as OP is now changing the story to that this girl now physically assaults them. Which is quite a big drip feed.

In a non physical disturbance or upset between groups of children they should be encouraged to deal with the issues openly and move on and not carry grudges for the benefit of all involved. Otherwise this will continue and most likely accelerate as the girls get older

And also Op has just said she isn’t even involved and possibly doesn’t even know ‘anna’ so all this could be hear say and ‘anna’ is the fall girl for some one else. Who knows.

Instead of banding together and swapping stories about a pre-teen you should encourage your DD to think independently and model ways to avoid getting caught up in groupthink

Absolutely.

These are 12 year old children also. Not adults.

My DS had an Alan in yr7, they’d been friends forever but DS saw high school as a chance to widen his social circle, not rely on primary school friends.

Within weeks DS was accused of stealing, breaking Alan’s stuff, hitting and shoving. DS admitted he’d been unkind once in a game of football, but nothing else. Eventually, Alan made accusations (significant enough to warrant suspension if true) which were rapidly proved to be false. I insisted that these were investigated as DS,by this point, couldn’t sleep for worrying about going into school. Over time more and more of the things DS was supposed to have done turned out to be not true.

Whilst I support the school’s attempts to work with Alan on his “issues with auto- elaboration” (as they called it), I was not willing to put DS through any further contact with him. DS and his old primary mates want nothing to do with him, in turn their new mates aren’t interested. I can’t say I’m planning to intervene. DS has suffered enough at the hands of this manipulative boy.

FWIW, I’m a teacher- I insist on civility to each other, but won’t force a friendship.

”Where have I said they have to be friends STDG?”

You haven’t - not in so many words, @Cottonwoolmouth - but talking of ‘meshing the girls back together’ does imply returning the relationship between the girls to it’s former state - ie. friendship.

And you have not said that you accept that it is reasonable for the girls to be polite to ‘Anna’ and work with her in school if necessary, but nothing more. You have said that they are now bullying her - I don’t consider politeness and cooperation in schoolwork but no more, to be bullying.

You are missing the salient point cottonwoolmouth that Anna is not being bullied. She is claiming to be.

Exactly the same as the Anna in my class. A quiet girl with low self esteem organizes a birthday pizza and invites all the girls. (14 in the class) 9 of them, one after the other "leaves the group" on WhatsApp the minute the group is formed. Following Anna.

Anna has a surname one letter different to another girl whose marks aren't so high. Teacher mistakenly calls Anna wrong surname. Anna says "don't you dare confuse me with that thicko"

I ask Anna to work in pairs with a girl. After 4 months in the same class Anna says "Angela who? Do we have an Angela in this class?"

Girl moves to class from different area of the country. Asks if she can go out at the weekend with Anna and her group. Anna tells her to fuck off.

Anna takes the piss out of another girl's clothes and posts photos all over social media.

Anna films a girl doing a presentation and puts it on Instagram.

Anna's mother said to me at parents' evening what a disappointment the school is because the rest of the class aren't up to her level.

Anna's best friend now was in her class at primary and was one of her victims. Now she has been totally gaslighted by Anna. Is greatful for the fact Anna deigns to now consider her when she made her life a misery at primary.

Does Anna need help? Bet your life she does. Is it her victims' responsibility to give it? No.

You haven’t - not in so many words - so dont put words in my mouth then.

They are ignoring her, that way she can't hurt them any more or cause more trouble

This is a whole group of girls now verses one. Ignoring some one is not (especially a whole group) is completely different to ‘being polite’ It’s group think and it’s dangerous to find shelter in a group rather than be independent because in a group there is always a queen and other people not wanting to rock the boat or be ousted.

It's what adults do - they avoid trouble makers, not befriend them - just bizarre that you expect children to behave like adults

However the goal posts on this have changed quite a bit so who knows what the real situation in

@Cottonwoolmouth if she doesn't like being ignored by them then she can either go and find new friends. Or stop being such a bitch.

sigh... it’s not solely about the girl being ignored. It’s about adults encouraging children to act as a whole group instead of being individuals.

I don’t know maybe lots of parents teach their kids that safety is in numbers

Why wouldn't the parents consult? They are all having the exact same issue.

Cottonwool have you missed the posts from other people, myself included who went through similar at school?

In my case 'Anna' domineered us for years. Some of my earliest school memories were of her pinching my face and pulling my hair. She did this to others as well. She ripped another child's earrings out. She kicked me in the face 'accidentally'. She would also be verbally nasty and spiteful. We were in the same Browie pack and she was the same there.

This went on for nearly the whole of Primary School until we worked out that she just wasn't very nice. She was a bully. Why should we be nice to someone who'd been so horrible to us for such a long time?

This is a whole group of girls now verses one. Ignoring some one is not (especially a whole group) is completely different to ‘being polite’ It’s group think and it’s dangerous to find shelter in a group rather than be independent because in a group there is always a queen and other people not wanting to rock the boat or be ousted.

Oh dear. What a fertile imagination you have. Do stop it.

just bizarre that you expect children to behave like adults

When I was 12/13 I was very adult in my behaviour. Weren't you? Most girls of tht age are.

I haven't changed the story. I spoke in the OP about spiteful actions. To me it was obvious that this meant poking, pinching, squeezing and other small scale actions that can't be seen by others.

But do carry on pretending that these girls are suddenly an organised gang like something out of a Clockwork Orange. They aren't. Just normal kids who've had enough of a bully.

And your continued defence of Anna and attributing gang-like behaviour to a lovely group of girls is getting pathetic.

I haven't changed the story. I spoke in the OP about spiteful actions. To me it was obvious that this meant poking, pinching, squeezing and other small scale actions that can't be seen by others

No love, it doesn’t. But yeah ... you crack on with dealing with ‘anna’