Why do people think some professional jobs like teachers/ midwives aren't paid well?

[Rollovers]

I read a lot on here about people moaning about teacher/ nurse/ midwife wages etc. I thought in the NHS you start off on around 25k which I think is a decent wage. I've seen on MN alot of nurses and midwives earning £30/40k upwards.

I genuinely am wondering why people think that's low pay? What would they want as a reasonable salary? Am I not understanding something. This is a genuine question and I am in no way being goady.

I earn very low @17k so perhaps my perception is slightly skewed.

Couldn't agree more joffrey. I have been teaching since 92 and it's like I have done about 8 different jobs. During this time, I'd estimate the syallabus even just at GCSE has changed upwards of 20 times, so that two years planning and then it is all done for life ceratinly isn't my experience.

Yeah, even I know that!

Excuse awful typing!!

@CrunchyMum
If you know so much about lawyers and what they are paid, you will also know that they are either solicitors or barristers. We don't have lawyers in the UK....

Lawyers is the umbrella term for both branches of the profession and I can assure you that we all describe ourselves as lawyers. Perhaps you are thinking of people who mistakenly call British lawyers attorneys?

Also, since you said “in the UK” rather than “in England and Wales” I should point out that there are three types of lawyer in the UK- solicitors, barristers and advocates. Advocates are the Scottish equivalent of barristers and never call themselves barristers. The other branch is called solicitor throughout the UK.

Sorry to derail an interesting thread with pedantry, but CrunchyMum started it and I couldn’t let her bold, but completely wrong, assertion lie unchallenged.

@piggywaspushed you misconstrue me, I am trying to counter balance some of the moaning about teaching by highlighting the many positives of being a teacher, something teachers don't seem able to do themselves. Teachers are collectively putting people off joining the profession!

Well, I missed that must say scuba. You appeared to be moaning about your childrens' teachers lack of marking.

@scubadive - why is the drop out rate for teaching v high? Why are there lots of staffing gaps in teaching? Perhaps it is just a reflection of modern life where people change jobs frequently?

Or maybe the working environment is not v good compared to alternatives?

Because the jobs are so difficult and stressful they should be earning more for what they do.

I dont think it's true that nobody working in schools other than teachers gets paid in the holidays either. My cousin is a TA and she gets paid for some of them, I think 4 or 5 weeks. I know this because she asked me for help working out maternity pay.

I don't need more pay. I need people to listen to the valid concerns of teachers and stop writing these off as 'moans'. It's an excellent way of avoiding dealing with things.

@aragog is your DH a Partner? Like Slappingjofgrey I am struggling to see how he could be on “many multiples” of a teaching salary of 40k ish in the environment and with the workload you describe?

@slappingjoffrey I worked in a school until 2 years ago myself and my sister is a teacher. My parents example is very relevant as all they did was moan even then , as did all their teaching friends, despite what I can now see was a very healthy balanced lifestyle with many benefits. Teachers have always moaned and continue to moan, it's part of their culture. I have worked in the public sector, the NHS, the private sector, large firms, small firms and people just do not constantly moan like teachers do. Yes people have a gripe every now and then about something but teachers moan about everything all the time, pay, schools, heads, deputies, heads of year, pupils, parents (especially parents) hours, conditions, unions, training days, you name it, teachers moan and they don't see the positives that they have.

Slightly different but I wish people would stop looking at me with pity when I tell them I decided to go into nannying. All I get is ‘oh, well I suppose it pays the bills’ I earn over 4K net a month ffs

@slappingjoffrey I did say that all staff other than teachers get paid 4-5 weeks holiday (depending on service and grade) and the remaining weeks are deducted as unpaid, teachers on the other hand are paid for 13 weeks holiday.

@piggywaspushed I was highlighting that teachers are always moaning about all the marking they have to do in the evenings (contributing to their 60 hour weeks) but yet in my experience books are very rarely marked. I was not moaning about the lack of marking per se, again you misconstrue me.

Fair enough @JessieMcJessie

Very close friend is a barrister (@ 1GC) and has always said 'they' [her chambers?] don't use the term lawyer.

May be a bit of inverted snobbery as she will correct anyone who refers to her as a solicitor or lawyer.

Didn't know about Advocate = Barrister in Scotland.... despite said Barrister friend being Scottish .... she has lived down here for 20 years and never practiced anywhere other than England.

she is lovely..... unless you call her a solicitor or lawyer

One major problem I have with teaching is that it isn't the job I signed up for a decade ago. It stated on the TES that inflation and lack of pay rises in that time has meant that I am earning over ten grand less in real terms than someone with my level of service a decade ago. That's the difference between buying the house, not struggling with childcare etc. In my opinion that ten grand extra was fair (I earn 29 now with 11years experience).

Add to that changes to pension, accountabilities and all the shit that has dumped on us in the last few years and I'm fed up. If I could have have forseen this at the time I would have taken my excellent academic qualifications and done something more lucrative!

Been a teacher fir over thirty years and my 21 year old son working in a semi skilled job earns nearly as much as me. If you divided my wage by the hours I work I’d be on less than minimum wage.

I havent RTFT, but it is surely an objective fact that some of these public sector jobs are not particularly well paid.

To find, many years after qualifying, that you are only earning about 1.5 the average wage is the definition of a poorly paid job when you take into account the level of education required.

Fair enough re the 5 weeks scubadive, but it's still daft to think your parents experiences decades ago when you were a child are relevant to a discussion about teaching now.

JessieMcJessie - He is a partner, but not an equity partner. He was but for various reasons, including financial ones, he made the move not to be a few years ago. Best decision he's made! And yes, he does earn a substantial salary in a regional northern firm working the hours stated. He has been very fortunate and he is also very good at what he does. He makes a lot of money for the firm and is paid accordingly.

Books are certainly marked at our school. Every piece of work is marked with in depth marking every third piece.

If you were a plumber in the South East working the same number of hours as many teachers do you'd be earning £80-£100K.

That's why it's underpaid. My partner teaches (part time to enable it to be doable) and if you took the hours worked divided by salary it's minimum wage.

SlappingJoffrey - not corporate law, but not the areas you mention either. As I say, very very good salary and a decent life style balance that works for us. Maybe mid range size but not one of the big names.

As said before - we do know several solicitors and barristers, as well as teachers, because of our jobs. Guess you often make and retain friends from your courses and your work. In our cases these people are earning good salaries and it just happens that all those in law are earning more than teachers at the same age/number of years experience.

I did say initially that this is just our experience.

I don't doubt that there are some variations across the country. I can only speak about what is our experience amongst friends and family.

@Motherontheedge1 yeah that’s common practice in the uk. Here in Ireland we don’t do much in depth marking at all! We mark in class and in school time also (mostly)

The teaching pension may be good if you teach for 40 years full time. If you leave after 5 or are forced to go part time because the workload is having such a massively detrimental impact in your mental health, it really isn’t.