Would you take your child into a prison?

[ConcealDontFeeI]

My 3yo DDs dad got sent to prison a couple of months ago for fighting. Was pretty bad and he has history. It was a group of thugs against another group of thugs (there were voice notes given as evidence of the other man saying 'come to my house and I'll kill you you '.

Absolutely not excusing it. I'm embarrassed and feel guilty every day that I chose this person as a dad for my beautiful DD. In my defence, for the few years we were together he was pretty decent. He then had a mental breakdown and became abusive, I broke up with him and he went down this route. He saw DD supervised in a contact centre for a while, then was signed off as ok to have her unsupervised.

He's been a pretty shitty dad in the terms of his life choices, but dotes on her when he's around her. She loves him very much. Which actually makes all of this a lot harder. I'm really not a fan of him, though I pity him a bit. But my absolute only concern in this is what's best for my DD.

I always said that no way was I taking my child to a prison. I've been there before whilst volunteering at uni, and I saw kids upset being searched by heavy handed P.Os and dogs (obviously this is necessary, no criticism).

I know that they run family days where he is, with soft play and face painting and stuff. So the environments a bit nicer. But I doubt the searching and things can change. She's young though and I could probably make up a story to explain it. But should I lie to her even more?

He's not pushing it, only asked once right at the beginning and I said no and he accepted my reasoning. But I feel really bad for my DD. He might get a couple of years. She gets very upset about how much she misses him. I've said he's working in another country (not sure if this was the right thing to do, research seems to be quite split and if she was a few years older I wouldn't have but I didnt know what to do for the best). He calls her every day but she really hates speaking on the phone to anybody, even me.

WWYD? I understand that MN isn't the demographic that is likely to be for this idea. TBH, I'm not really the type of person that would be either. I just want to do what's best for her though, and is keeping her away from her dad for years the best for her? I'm leaning towards yes, as I always have, because who wants their young child going to a prison!? But would seeing her dad in a fun environment be worth telling a fib to explain the nice policemen searching her?

No judging please. I'm not a scumbag; I left my abusive boyfriend at 21 with a little baby and started a degree right away, worked to solely provide for us throughout, starting a masters in September, never ever been in trouble with the police and have complete respect for the law etc. My DD has an absolutely lovely, idyllic life. Scared to post this but desperate for outside opinions.

I took my daughter to a prison to visit her father when she was about 4. Biggest mistake I've ever made & I really thought it was important to maintain their relationship etc too but I was kidding myself. It made her feel 'different' when she innocently talked about it in class and no-one else's dad was in prison. However, your child misses their dad and it sounds like it would really benefit your daughter. Be as honest as you can with her about the situation though, more like the policeman are here to keep you safe or something / make it into a game... especially as they'll ask to open your mouth & stick your tongue out which kids think is funny. My daughters dad wrote to her but lied in his letters saying he was in the bloody jungle of all things always was a fantacist Just confused her so much!

Oh god! This is my worst nightmare. I so don't want to think after doing it that it was the biggest mistake I've ever made and I've really damaged her. Do you still think I should even after what you've been through? Do you think I should say he's working at the prison so she doesn't go round talking about it or by saying to be honest do you think I should tell her the truth in an age appropriate way? Tbh the latter sounds horrific and I couldn't imagine saying it but am completely open to your thoughts as you're the one in the know. Thank you for posting

I would and I have. My DSs were so thrilled to see their dad. It broke my heart a little, seeing them so happy to see him. But he's their dad, and always will be, and I owe them that much.

Thank you for another perspective. What did you tell them and how old were they if you don't mind me asking?

I agree with a pp. You sound really lovely and whatever choice you make will be the best one.
Sorry for that cop out answer

Op I've been there. My ds2 was 3 when his dad went to prison.
We had both decided beforehand there was no way my dc were going into that environment.

Even if he had of wanted dc to visit I still would of said no.
This would of been completely my decision and if I have to I am prepared to defend it to my dc later on in life (they still have no idea that is where he went)

There's phone calls and letters so there is never no contact.

Also it was a choice to break the law and not be there for your child so tough.

For me personally I felt really sad for the children on prison visits. There's just some places children shouldn't go.

You really are not alone here and it does sound like you are doing your best so trust your judgement.

My brother was convicted for assault and battery, category B and he had a young daughter at the time.

He got 14 months but only served 3, then out on a tag etc - I visited him frequently and saw children go through the searches including opening their mouths for inspection so like you I'm not sure it's the right place for kids if it's a short term thing. Once they got into the visiting suite the kids pottered about but dad being in a high vis vest made it all a bit weird.

Whatever the sentence they are likely to halve it and the other half will be on a tag outside so hang on til then. It might just be a few weeks.

Ask in his PSR if he can be kept local due to relationship and visiting with daughter

What is a PSR? He asked me to write a letter to the judge. I said I would, but I wasn't going to lie. So I was going to write that he'd had his struggles but he has the potential to be a good dad, he's very much missed and I didn't think a very long period of jail time would be beneficial to her, him or society in general. Worded better than that obviously, I haven't thought too much about it yet whole other thread. I do hope he has to serve a year or so. He needs a proper wake up call. But much longer wont help anyone I don't think. And research says that extended jail time doesn't stop an offender from reoffending, it's just to keep the public safe. And he's never been a risk to the general public. Though it's not my decision to make. Is that his PSR? I drive so don't mind an hour each way, that's what I do for work. We have a lot of prisons within that distance. But much further would be an issue. Would I write that in this letter to the judge, or is it sometning else?

My dad was in and out of prison when I was a child (parents divorced when I was 2) and sorry but I absolutely hated going. I was always scared. Children at school were horrible to me as I was the only one with a dad in prison.

I have no relationship with my father as an adult because of his poor life choices and to be honest although I'm glad my mother let me make that decision for myself I really think I would have been better not having to go through all that.

My Dad was in prison when I was a baby and my Mum took me in. He went back into prison when I was around 10-11... I can remember bits but not much. Glad I was allowed to keep up the relationship with my Dad because now at 26 & he's finally sorted his life out we are closer than ever. It just opened my eyes and it was almost like a new experience. I doubt she'd remember going into the prison itself but keeping the relationship going is important.

Ah, thank you for sharing! So glad he's finally sorted his life out and you two are really close. So hope that happens with my DD and her dad (though hopefully he gets his act together a little sooner than you've had to wait)!

These sorts of stories really are reaffirming the decision I think I'm leaning towards. Was not expecting this response.

I've worked in 3 men's prisons. I would not take a child into a b cat or c cat prison, it's not a nice place for children and even if their actual meeting with their dad is ok, there is stuff going on in there that you don't want your child exposed to or worrying about. In a d-cat/ open prison then yes, on specific family visits I would take my child. I think the best you can do is encourage a regular dialogue through letters, which your dd can reply to with your help- both parties will benefit from this. Send drawings and cards etc. A lot of the dads inside tell their kids their working away in the army or on oil rigs or some other believable reason why they can't visit.

Ah, the last couple of posts! I'm so torn again reading them.

Sounds like I could really fuck my DD up whatever I choose.

I'm so angry at him for this. I work so bloody hard to make sure she has the best life I can manage, and I'm stuck between either messing with her head one way, or messing with her head another way. And I've written numerous essays on how your pre-5yo experiences impact your entire life and personality. Was the reason I kicked him to the kerb as soon as he started being horrible in front of my DD. And now I have no choice but to damage her whichever decision I make.

It was very recent, mine are 9 and 11 years old, so not as young as yours. They know the details of the offence, which isn't a violent one. Their schools are hugely supportive of them. They themselves are very careful about who they talk about it with though. I'm not sure they've told any of their friends they've been to see him.

Before you fully make up your mind one way or another, have a look at Prisoner Advice Service. There is advice for children here too.

Ah I'm glad you saw my post OP - honestly you're doing brilliantly I want have your determination when I grow up and I'm older than you 😂

Keep talking and asking questions on here, I'm always amazed how helpful it is for myself and others - someone always has wisdom to share as well as practical advice.

Also in overwhelming situations like this our brains tend to see two opposite possibilities as the only choices so try to remember you can do things and then reassess / stop / continue / change frequency of. You're well within your rights to try one way of doing something and see how it goes.

You've got this

Also it was a choice to break the law and not be there for your child so tough.

I absolutely agree with this, btw. I'm really not considering how he feels at all. He's been a complete shit to the pair of us in the life choices that he's made, and though I feel sorry for him and have a vested interest in him sorting his life out for my kid, he really doesn't factor into my decision.

That's the thing with a lot of the negative posts. You guys were made to go over and over, weren't you? I 10000000% wouldn't do that. I know my DD is only 3 but I don't think our relationship will change in the next three years. It's an open one, and she knows she can tell me if she doesn't want to go somewhere or do something and I'll happily accept that. We're thick as thieves, best pals. Chat away all day long about anything and everything. Even if she didn't tell me upfront, I'd watch her closely and chat to her at length afterwards and as soon as she wasn't feeling it, I'd stop it immediately.

Now for example, like I said she hates speaking on the phone. Her dad calls asking to speak to her and she really doesn't want to. It's not him, she went away for a weekend with my sister and would speak to me either. She doesn't speak to her granny on the phone. She just hates it for some reason. But anyway, I never force her. I know it hurts his feelings and I make sure he knows that she loves him and talks about him loads but she just doesn't like speaking on the phone and I'm not gonna make her.

Do you guys who are saying not to think that even with this kind of bond and me having absolutely no interest bar her in keeping visits going (I.e. if your parents weren't divorced or whatever so they didn't feel they could stop visits, whereas I literally only care about my kid and would stop it after 10 minutes no questions asked if she wanted to), would you still say not to do it?

I'm not asking these questions because I've already made up my mind btw. Just want clarity in my decision either way.

Ah @ooItsAoBeautifulDayNow, please stop being so lovely, I'd only just stopped crying from the last nice message from a PP.

seriously, I don't really hear things like that ever. Life can seem a bit of a slog sometimes, and in situations like this, I feel like I'm a massive scumbag for putting my kid through this, either way. So it really does mean the world. You're right, setting up one visit and seeing how it goes doesn't mean we're tied into the agreement for life. I'll remember that.

For me, I think it depends on what role he has and intends to play in her life.

In my circumstances - my father dipped in and out of my life and served numerous prison sentences. His lifestyle was more important to him than being a good father. It can make a child feel like they're not good enough when they get to an age where they understand what is happening.

Having a dad who was never there 100% in my life has affected my relationships with men as an adult.

Do you think this incident will be a wake up call for him and he will change? I do believe in second chances for everyone but sporadic contact can do more harm than good. He needs to be fully committed.

Hi, I used to work as a play worker at prison visitor centre. It was ran by a charity and a very positive environment and it was a high security prison. Perhaps see if there is similar?

I would take her to a family day, there's lots of research that's shows that inmates that have positive family connections whilst inside do better once released and that's good for your dc, and thus you (eg child support)

I visited a top security hospital for nine years, every six weeks or so from the age of eight or nine. My Mum didn’t have any choice but to take me with her really. It was awful but on the other hand if I hadn’t have gone I would have no memories of my (now deceased) big brother at all, really. Or even fewer. At least I saw him, across a table. So I’m sort of glad I went in a way. Don’t know if that helps (probably not).

*For me, I think it depends on what role he has and intends to play in her life.

In my circumstances - my father dipped in and out of my life and served numerous prison sentences. His lifestyle was more important to him than being a good father. It can make a child feel like they're not good enough when they get to an age where they understand what is happening.

Having a dad who was never there 100% in my life has affected my relationships with men as an adult.

Do you think this incident will be a wake up call for him and he will change? I do believe in second chances for everyone but sporadic contact can do more harm than good. He needs to be fully committed.*

It's hard to tell I think. He's certainly talking a good talk at the moment, and I'm leaning towards that this is a wake up call for him. Tbf he has always been pretty stable in her life. I'd say 85% every week, with closer to 95% in the past year (the offence actually happened nearly 3 years ago, it took a long time to get to court). Tbh I haven't trusted him with overnights for years, and SS agreed with me (not enforced, informally) that he wasn't ready for overnight contact. But this was largely to do with him sofa surfing. He'd take her swimming every week, ice skating and things. Every Wednesday and Sunday she gets really upset because they were their days.

But I can't promise he'll always be stable and decent. You never can, can you? Especially with people suffering with mental health problems. I managed to persuade him to get diagnosed and go on medication for his bipolar a couple of years ago. He's evangelical about how much the meds help him and has never missed a dose. But mental illness is a tricky one. I couldn't guarantee he wouldn't have another breakdown, and I'd have to stop him seeing her. I don't think it'd be him dipping out. Which makes it even more complicated I guess.

It really is tough when the world assumes you're just coping fine but don't see how much effort goes on behind the scenes.

Or when you collapse onto the sofa after a day of nonstop grafting - you just want someone to pop up and say well done and give you a cuddle don't you!It's almost like being punished for putting on a brave face!

And do absolutely feel free to PM me if you need to offload or have a pep talk anytime

Hi, I used to work as a play worker at prison visitor centre. It was ran by a charity and a very positive environment and it was a high security prison. Perhaps see if there is similar?

Where he is now runs a fab one, judging by the online pamphlet:-

So that everyone has a great time, activities are arranged for all age groups. Previous examples included:
• hand puppet sewing kits
• handprint painting
• making musical shakers
• decorating biscuits which could then be
eaten
• ... and decorating card photo frames,
which could be used within the prison.
There are also quiet areas for babies, and
a large physical activity area for the older children. The Mothers’ Union also prepares a light buffet and refreshments for families.

Sounds lovely. This is definitely factoring into my decision. Traditional visiting sessions are not at all fun for your typical 3yo. Certainly not my lively one! Also selfishly it means I don't have to spend a couple of hours sitting at a table making small talk for DDs sake. I can just sit there with tea and a cake and they can go off and play

Your little girl is very lucky to have a mother who puts her first. To be honest with you, I think whatever you decide you will have made the choice that is right for her, because it sounds like you have your shit together and are determined to rise above some fairly tough circumstances. I also understand why you pity him. It sounds like he loves her and is just very lost (not excusing the behaviour that landed him in prison). Your plan to encourage the relationship while it is safe and positive to do so is good for both your daughter and her father.

If it were me, I would speak to some of the organisations that support families in similar circumstances and get some advice. I would encourage the phone calls (she will get better at this quite soon, my 4-year-old is suddenly much better on the phone than she was a few months ago) and the bedtime story thing is great.

I would be very wary of taking a child to a prison, so I would seek reassurance, perhaps visiting him yourself and seeing first hand how child visits are managed? This would also give you a chance to talk face to face about it and gauge how he is coping. This is a very difficult situation and I really admire your courage.

Thank you both so much @ooItsAoBeautifulDayNow & @ogidni. I'll see what the sentence is and do a lot more research and go from there, but at least now I'm sure that whichever decision I make, I'm not being a horrible and harmful mum. Your comments (and other PPs) have warmed my soul and I can't tell you how much I needed them tonight especially.

Thank you all for your advice and for being so lovely and absolutely non-judgey. Mumsnet at its best and I couldn't be more thankful for you all 

I would, yes. But I wouldn’t be happy about it. Hope it works out for you.

Hi OP... at the risk of outing myself - I used to work for the charity which does the recordings on CD and DVD for children of prisoners. Have a look at their website here www.storybookdads.org.uk/ It sounds like the prison already runs this. It's usually for CD recordings, but he may be lucky and be in one of the prisons with equipment to record DVDs. Whichever - there is no limit (within reason) of the amount he can do - so if he would like to send one on a monthly basis, that shouldn't be a problem. He can also record special ones for birthdays / Christmas.
I also used to work on visits. The Family Days are really great for kids of all ages. The regular visits not so much, but having said that many young children used to visit and the prison tried to make them family friendly with a children's area. This was in a Cat C prison. Best of luck.