Would you recommend a career in the Law?

[brutplonk]

DD is very interested in becoming a city lawyer... think she has her eyes on all the glitz n glamour and not the reality. If you are a city lawyer, or a lawyer in general. Would you do it again if you were 21 again?

As it happens just bumped into a lawyer I work with, she said that the GDL is still a good strong option. Who told you it wasn't ?

I did the GDL. First degree was English at Durham (I got a 2.1 which was all magic circle firms asked for at the time, no idea if that's changed these days). I remember it was demoralizing getting all the rejections after hours spent on the applications. All I can say is persevere.

I never had a sense the GDL disadvantaged me. If anything it was encouraged at the time on the basis it made you more 'rounded' and everything you needed to know about law (outside the foundation the GDL gives you) you pretty much learnt on the job anyway. This was a decade ago though so don't know if things have changed.

As to the advice about going for a smaller firm..... I would suggest the opposite on the basis that if you start with a big well known city firm you can go pretty much anywhere else. For example, I know a partner in a regional firm based in east Anglia who trained in a city firm but moved in her 30s so she could be back in Ipswich where she's from and be a 10 minute drive from her office. This story is common. However you couldn't do this in reverse, i.e. from the regions to the city. Not saying she'd want to but nice to have more options down the line - a top city firm on your CV gives you this. Just my opinion of course and you could no doubt find people with a different experience and different view...

Obviously once qualified you get a massive salary

That isn’t always true. In corporate, maybe. In personal injury in our city I’ve seen NQ salaries at £18k. Criminal defence is also horribly underpaid.

Average NQ salary is closer to £25k across all fields here. Not a massive salary by any stretch.

Contrast with London. I know someone who was on £150k very quickly. But also had to work a 90 hour week for the privilege. She almost never wasn’t working. I include 3am phone calls in that from international clients that she HAD to keep happy.

It’s really a broad spectrum. The fun stops after about ten years of it. It’s a lot of stress and pressure and as a woman I’ve come across an inordinate number of misogynists - and even without the extremes it’s harder to succeed as a woman if you’re in a firm with a boys club mentality.

It takes a very specific kind of person to do the job and be good at it, as well as being lucky enough to train somewhere good (I’ve seen no end of crap lawyers who just weren’t given adequate training or supervision). If I had my time again I’d probably still do it, but only because I wouldn’t have a clue what else to do!

Ps. My experience nothing like as bad as racecardriver portrays and I was the credit crunch generation (started TC in the boom, then the world collapsed and there were far fewer jobs on qualification than we expected). It was tough at times and the firm definitely want their pound of flesh but the good definitely outweighed the bad bits and sitting here 10 years on I feel it was all worth it to have an interesting and well paid job now

I am the OP from the "city lawyer" thread in Classics. I'm now several years qualified at a City firm.

Overall, I think I would do it again. The money is good and it's really good training for lots of things. Teaches you how to think critically and under pressure. However, it hasn't been an easy ride. It can be very stressful, and there are a lot of difficult and dysfunctional personalities in law firms. Partners have almost absolute power over your career and some of them really exploit it. I've been sexually harassed / abused by several different partners, not to mention the mind games and being constantly pushed beyond my limits / comfort zone workwise. I had to take a month off work after basically having a nervous breakdown. I won't do this job forever, and in a couple of years will probably move in-house or do something different. I have no interest in being a partner - pretty much all the ones I know are miserable and incredibly stressed, despite the massive earnings. Maybe that's just my firm though.

Contrary to most people's experience, I didn't find it hard to get a training contract. I have a first class degree, which helped. But I certainly didn't have loads of amazing extra-curricular achievements. That stuff is overrated in my experience. Most of our trainees are not even that amazing academically - a 2:1 from somewhere like Warwick or Bristol seems to be the norm. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the GDL and loads of people in my firm studied History first - it's a classic degree to convert from.

Overall I would say she should give a go. If she hates it she can quit and do something else.

I worked in a magic circle firm for 7 years went in as newly qualified didn’t train there. Loved the experience of living in London met interesting people travelled with work. Hours were insane and for me incompatible with having kids though can be done if you go the nanny route. Changed my life as met lovely dh (in the office) and got enough money to buy a flat. Think the trick is knowing when to walk away.

I'm another ex City lawyer. I agree that a history degree from Oxbridge and a GDL are classic ways in, but also that just getting your foot in the door is insanely competitive.

If she does get an offer she should take it as I agree it is a good thing to have on your CV. However, she should also apply to some of the good provincial firms.

The great thing about working in the City is the interesting deals, many of which will be in the newspapers while you are working on them. Yes trainees do get lots of dross, but they do get interesting stuff too. The stories about the long hours are absolutely not exaggerated and they continue after you are qualified.

The misogyny and old boys' networks are absolutely alive and well even now. You need a massive amount of stamina and mental resilience and many people drop out along the way.

If you don't want to work ridiculous hours for ever, once qualified stay clear of corporate, finance and litigation and to a lesser extent, commercial property. Having a specialism like pensions, trademarks or competition law is slightly less ridiculous hours on average but you will still need to put the hours in sometimes.

Remember all fee earners have a chargeable hours target which is the bare minimum they are expected to achieve (usually around 2000 hours pa but can be much more), and that 2000 is actual time billed, not time in the office, and to make partner you will need to significantly exceed this.

Ultimately all law firms are about making money so building up good contacts with people who will give you jobs is really the key and you can start doing this from a very junior level.

It is a hard and all consuming life and is largely incompatible with having children, but at its best it is interesting and challenging and teaches you to think on your feet. Intellect is important but commerciality is more so.

If I had my time again I'd have stayed in private practice until about 4 years post qual then moved in house or to consultancy.

Jones, 2,000 billable is pretty high I think. Normal for a US firm but not anywhere else. I think Linklaters is only about 1700 (although most people end up billing more than their target).

No but if she's Oxbridge she stands a realistic chance of doing well in law. It's brutal though unless you work at the low paid end. I'd do something different if I had my time again.

I have never worked in a high flying field though

I don’t regret my choice to be a lawyer - it offered me a cast iron route into the city which I probably would never otherwise have obtained.

I have 3 kids, work 4 days a week doing pretty cutting edge work in-house at a bank. It has its downsides and I do wonder what my next steps will be but training at a MC law firm will never be a negative in my CV. It is hard though - my work feels like doing exams every single day - often doing from scratch research in very novel points of law. It’s mentally draining and even now at 12 years PQE, I get totally overwhelmed.

Much harder o get a TC now than when I did it. Don’t even think about doing GDL/LPC without backing from employer.

I’m a Commmercial Property Solicitor and it’s not all about working stupidly long hours in London.

I’m at a decent, medium sized midlands firm that does not encourage long hours and is very family friendly and diverse.

Securing a Training Contract in you second year of your law degree or third year if you convert isn’t the be all and end all it’s made to be either.

I did my LPC when I was in my early thirties and got a Paralegal job. I was offered a TC at the first firm I was at but it wasn’t the right one for me, so I moved firms and after 8 months of “proving” myself I got offered a TC there.

I’ve not got A Levels, I’ve got a vocational equivalent of 2 A levels, I went to a glorified polytechnic uni and I only volunteered at CAB for a year.

My daughter is currently going through this and it's hard,' she has a first in law from a top Russel group, and is currently working as a paralegal for a top twenty and doing her lpc, she has some assementent centres lined up, and her current firm is mentoring her through to training contract, if she elects to stay there, like many of the grads, she is focused on corporate.

She enjoys what she does, and she is clearly well regarded where she is , but there is no dispute that it's hard work and a shit ton of hours.

I think as a mother, I'd say, make sure this is really what she wants, because it's not an easy ride.

DD will begin her training contract in September this year and is currently completing her LPC & Masters in London which is sponsored by her future employer.

DD said nearly half of the 15 trainees that she will work alongside in September have done the GDL and most of these were history graduates.

If your DD wants to go into corporate law it would be enormously beneficial if she could secure a place on law vacation schemes. These tend to be the favoured way that law firms use to recruit for training contracts as it is basically a protracted interview that lasts 2 or 3 weeks (paid). Of course direct applications can also be successful but less so. DD applied for 5 vacation schemes, was offered 4, completed 3 and got a training contract offer from 1. The application process for the vacation schemes is quite long and can include initial application form - each one must be tailored to each specific firm as they can spot a cut, copy and past application a mile off and must also demonstrate a level of commercial awareness. There may then be a critical thinking test, a skype interview with an android were your answers to set questions are recorded or a face to face interview. Some firms also use assessment centres which will include group and individual tasks and an interview.

As your dd would need to do the GDL/LPC or the new solicitors qualifying exam (bit of an unknown quantity at the moment). Based on the current route the fulltime GDL is circa £11,650 and LPC is circa £16,765 with a London based provider. It is therefore much better if you DD can obtain a city training contract as the firm will sponsor her and pay her fees while also giving her £8000 per year towards living costs. Most big city firms prefer either BPP or the University of Law to be the provider and it is usually London based.

Corporate can be relentless and cut throat but the salary is the compensation. DD aim is to do 10 years of madness and then move in house somewhere.

Bluntness, what is corporate and why is it popular?

Thanks

Corporate is were the £££ salaries are.

Dealing with legal commercial transactions such as Mergers & Acquisitions.

Corporate is documenting deals - I did projects for example clients buying a share in a power station in the Middle East or building a road in Czech Republic you are involved in the clients negotiations with the government, banks, sellers etc and draft the contracts for that transaction. The nature of the work is long long hours. A pp said you can’t move from regions to the city - I did. In my career I have basically done everything that advisors say you cannot do

No if the aim is a large city firm. You sign your life and your health away. Literally.

Maybe if you carefully choose a smaller firm or different route but the pay isn’t terrific and it’s a tough career for a working mother.

I work in house and wouldn’t do law again. Not given my desire to have a family. I might have chosen accountancy as much broader skills!

Dh and I both say we were about 100 years too late as solicitors! Law used to be well paid, well respected and not too hard work. You can make more money for much less stress and hard work. It’s not a smart choice.

I’ve not read the full thread, just up to where OP says her DD is at Oxbridge studying history.

Clearly your DD has the academic background to break into city law. It is highly competitive however. Trainee numbers have dropped since the recession. Your DD will need to go through 2 additional years of study before being able to start a training contract (the 2 year on the job training, at the end of which you qualify as a solicitor): the GDL conversion course and the LPC (which both law graduates and converts have to do).

These courses aren’t cheap - depending on where you do them around £10k per year. And they are useless qualifications if you don’t ultimately end up going into the law. However, if your DD secures a training contract before embarking on the courses they are likely to be paid for by her future firm. Firms recruit 2 years in advance to allow for this (so final year non-law students/2nd year law students would apply at the same time). I would recommend your daughter gets some work experience in solicitors firms. Vacation scheme placements are ideal as they usually also include assessments for training contracts.

She should also give some thought to regional firms, not just city law. I do City quality work but work regionally. I don’t earn as high a salary but comparative cost of living means I have own a family home 30mins train commute into my northern city. I’ve had a baby and have another on the way, and I’ve been promoted in line with other child-free colleagues. Regional firms can provide a better work/ balance while still doing excellent work, and you’re likely to get more responsibility earlier on in your career because you aren’t treated as a very expensive document reviewer/photocopier.

Also, city law isn’t just corporate work. There are a number of specialisms within City firms. Most trainees will find they are naturally drawn to contentious (litigation) or non-contentious (transactional - corporate/commercial/real estate/projects etc) work once they’ve experienced it ‘on the job’

If I did my life again I would still have done law gone to the city then moved sideways into legal marketing - my friend does this at senior level much less stress and paid the same as senior associate solicitor but flexible working. So training at city firm and staying for abit could be basis for other careers

God I remember my own mother crying and saying “we didn’t bring you into the world to work like this” when I was a junior associate at a magic circle firm! She was quite right I wouldn’t want that lifestyle for my girls either. That was early 2000s hopefully changed

I trained at a City firm (not MC, but it paid for my GDL and LPC). I always knew it wasn't where I wanted to be in the long run, but it gave me a really good foundation: with the firm's name on my CV , I made a move into the Civil Service at 2 years PQE and then to run the legal team for a big third sector organisation. Looking back, I wouldn't do anything differently- yes, the hours were brutal, but I was out of there long before I thought of having children. These days I work 40-50 hours a week, but I have a lot of flexibility about how, when and where I do it, and I have a really interesting, worthwhile job with decent though not stellar pay.

No.

The pay is rubbish when you take into account the hours and stress.

It’s incredibly difficult to get a good training contract.

Lawyers frequently rank amongst the lowerst for job satisfaction.