Is there really an argument for the meat and dairy industry? Current meat and dairy consumer here

[Bastardanxiety]

Hi,

I can't guarantee this won't get heated, due to it's nature, but if we could at least try to keep things civil, that would be good.

So briefly, I've been a meat lover all my life and whereas we have been meat reducing the past couple of years, we've not seriously considered cutting it out completely. Recently though, with all the controversy surrounding the dairy industry specifically, it's really got us thinking, could we become completely vegan? I'm finding it increasingly difficult not to feel incredibly guilty. I can't see an viable argument against veganism.

I don't want to babble on, as I would just like to become more educated on the subject before making a decision.

Thanks

Seasonal and from local farms is ideal but where do you get your citrus fruit; lemons, oranges, tangerines etc or Bananas from?
Certainly none grown in Hampshire.

There are some amazing producers and farmers trying to offer a real alternative to mass produced meat and dairy

I think a much more ethical approach is to support their businesses and eat a lot less of it

These are some of the producers we buy from now
Beef from discarded Male dairy calves www.lfm.org.uk/producers/woodlands-jersey-beef/
Naturally reared beef kept in family heards on pasture www.cotswoldbeef.com

Calf at foot making amazing cheese: www.theethicaldairy.co.uk/

Haven’t used this one but saw the link to it on another thread on MN www.the-calf-at-foot-dairy.co.uk

OlderThanAverage thanks for explaining that :)
and it's great to have a nice amicable thread about this subject

If you want to go vegan, do. Make sure you’re aware of the supplements you’ll need and how to get correct nutrition.

If you want to carry on eating meat and dairy, do. Best choices are locally produced farms where you can see how the standards are and it keeps the food miles low.

My personal choice is to carry on eating dairy and meat, because I want to. Wherever possible we buy local meat and milk, as well as local eggs and honey. I personally think that farming with good husbandry and standards is fine, and it’s a fact that humans have not evolved being vegan - we have an obligate need for b12 for example, and our dentition and digestive tract is that of an omnivore.

HouseyMcHouseFace organic doesn't kill the insects, particularly the bees. When the bees are gone, we are fucked. Vegan or otherwise.

I thought organic food required more pesticides which kill more insects and bees?

No, the whole point of organic is that there are no pesticides involved!

On the whole it is also less fossil fuel intensive (artificial fertilisers use a great deal of energy to manufacture), although there's still cultivation, tractor use etc. Yields are typically lower, but generally the issue is that there is a lot more labour time involved (some of us would see that as a good thing as it creates employment).

Separately, GM crops have been shown not to increase yields as compared to conventionally (ie not organically) farmed non-GM varieties. (More than you ever wanted to know on the topic from the Union of Concerned Scientists - generally considered moderates - here.)

What is so often lost in the vegan argument is the amount of fertiliser animals also make. Without the mountains of poo they donate we either need to make more fertiliser artificially or farm less productively. Traditional mixed farming systems would do this more efficiently than monoculture of course. Plus so much of our land is turned over to sheep as humans can't eat what grows there, so we use sheep to convert the energy for us.

That said, I genuinely believe that there is no way we can meet the appetite for meat consumption that the world has, so lab grown meat is likely to become the norm in years to come.

GM could, IF used correctly and morally, do some very good things. Golden rice for example and nutritional deficiencies. GM in and of itself isn’t evil.

What’s problematic is the commercial interest. Things like terminator seeds for example. It’s hard to balance commercial profit and what genuinely benefits humanity - right now the balance is towards commercial.

Very intensive factory farming of crops, lower meat eating, different protein forms (hullo, insects!) will be needed alongside traditional low impact farming - as much to maintain ecosystems as to feed people.

Or fewer people.

I would love to say that I'm surprised about the ignorance of farming and UK farming practices in this threat but sadly I'm not.

Much of the land used for livestock farming is land that isn't good for growing crops. If you look at areas of the UK that are livestock heavy it's mostly the west. Rainfall is higher and the infrastructure (large roads capable of holding the heavy machinary needed for crops) isn't there. What these areas do produce in abundance is grass - grass which can be eaten by cattle and sheep and used to feed the population.

Lamb is a brilliant source of protein from next to nothing, large amounts of lamb is finished with little to no additional feeding (as in other than grass). Feeding corn based diets is expensive and, with good enough quality grass, unnecessary.

The UK farming standards are some of the highest in the world. Be very careful when researching online that the information that you're reading is about UK farming and not other countries. For example i often hear that beef is full of hormones - this practice is completely illegal in the UK (but not the US).

Before anyone jumps on me - there are rogue farmers in the UK as there are in any jobs anywhere in the world but this is the minority not the majority. I'm sure that there are vegans out there who don't agree with the extreme end of veganism too.

Eat whatever you want it doesn't matter to me in thw slightest. Butt I would encourage people who want to eat meat to eat UK produced meat that is Red Tractor certified at a minimum.

For those saying that they only eat/drink organic meat I would be asking them to examine the rationale behind this and actually what organic means for the animals.

And I would ask that people who think it's ok to eat meat watch the film Earthlings, and those who think it's ok to eat meat raised in the UK under "humane" certification schemes to watch Land of Hope and Glory www.landofhopeandglory.org

These were filmed undercover at farms and abbatoirs and show extremely upsetting footage if animal cruelty that you will never be able to erase from your mind. If you eat meat but don't want to watch ask yourself why you're ok with "out of sight out of mind" and with giving your money to those who perpetuate this abuse. Land of Hope and Glory contains footage from several RSPCA farms which is a much more stringent certificate than Red Tractor. Red Tractor is not worth the label it's printed onwww.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/the-good-food-stamp-barely-worth-the-label-its-printed-on-7697854.html%3famp And no it is not the exception it is systematic animal abuse inherent in modern production methods. 99% of meat is factory farmed.

In terms of farming and the environment the methane that is produced doesn't depend on whether the land is good for crops or not. While it is true that some of this land is unsuitable due to rainfall, topography etc the idea that most areas where animals are raised for meat don't have the infrastructure for growing crops is grasping at straws and untrue.

Whatsnew I am sure you are aware that these so called "documentaries" are funded and produced by organisations with vested interests in making the world meat free. They therefore have agendas, and are essentially peddling propaganda. You have to recognise that they are extreme in their views, and therefore, like any extreme organisation, prepare materials which suits their agenda.

The forks over knives one was riddled with scientific inaccuracies

Whatsnewwithyou I've worked in farming and abortoires (but wasn't brought up farming, which I think is important) and I'm comfortable with the meat industry. The dairy industry I feel is being forced in to unpleasant practices, so I'm reducing dairy.

I don't trust "documentaries" on such topics, they often have an agenda.

I am just going by the footage of the actual animals, not the spin that's put on it. The scenes were filmed in abbatoirs and farms in the UK and elsewhere, actual footage if the way animals are treated...so the suffering of the animals speaks for itself, no propaganda needed.

Our beliefs and views obviously differ which is fine.

As my post clearly said red tractor should be a minimum when looking at buying meat. There are other schemes out there but i suspect the general consumer is unaware of them and or the differences between them.

I work very closely with farmers day to day and the overwhelming majority are passionate about their animals including the health and welfare of them. Farmers work long hours very closely with these animals and without any other motivation sick, injured and poorly treated animals do not produce good quility meat/milk. Whichever way you look at it it's in a farmers interest to care for their stock.

I have also spent time in abattoirs and again the footage linked is nothing like anything I've witnessed. And i would raise questions about the locations of the filming. Even so the industry has increased its surveillance of issues such as this and CCTV is now present in all abattoirs in the UK.

As i said im my previous post there are a small minority of farmers that aren't up to scratch and there maybe issues but to tar the whole industry with the same brush is insulting. I know vegans that get annoyed at being compared to the extreme militant vegans that send murderous threats to people or walk into resturants and abuse people as they eat. I would hope to believe that you wouldn't enjoy being compared to these people.

I did not grow up with farming but am now imvolved and i am quite happy to eat the produce from the farms i am involved with. Buy British. By local and be prepared that that comes with additional expense that good animal welfare comes from. If that means cutting down meat intake then I would fully support that.

Also Whats... everything is not always as it seems.

I had a farmer that was the subject of some anti farming campaign. The footage showed a dead sheep in one of his barns with the voiceover complaining about lack of respect for dead stock. The farm has only dairy cows. The activists had dragged a dead sheep over the footpaths in order to film it in his shed.... who has no respect for dead stock?

Organic doesn’t mean no pesticides. It generally means limiting pesticides to whichever ones appear on the ‘approved’ list of whichever organisation the farmer wants to be certified by. Many ‘natural’ pesticides are approved for use, including bucket loads of copper sulphate - which I’m not planning to sprinkle on my cornflakes any time soon.

Would you like this lovely BACON sammich, it's got lashings of butter, it's honey glazed, dripping in caramelized onion chutney and topped off with a softly fried egg.

Or would you like this piece if broccoli?

And that's why we should eat animals.

That’s what I thought bogstandard. I haven’t seen any convincing reports that organic is better for wildlife or bees. It’s arguably better for soil management, but that may be down to land management as much as using organic pesticides.