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Original poster

So, the UK can withdraw from Brexit.....

61 replies

MulticolourMophead · 10/12/2018 09:50

Just saw on the news that the European Court of Jystice gas ruked we don't need permission from the other EU members to withdraw from Brexit.

Good, I hope we can get a proper vote on the deal now.

OP posts:
SummerGems · 10/12/2018 11:25

I voted remain, think that brexit is a disaster and wish things had gone differently.

But I think that there is too much complacency around another referendum. We believed in the first referendum that remain would win. Believed it without question, in fact there were leave voters who didn’t vote because they believed there was no point as remain was going to win. And then it didn’t.

And while it’s become clear that there were inconsistencies around what was sold as the leave possibilities, I don’t actually know anyone who voted based on the crap that was fed to the leave vote e.g. £350m extra for the nhs a week and so on, and everyone I know who voted leave would do so again.

I think that people want to believe that the vote would go a different way this time, but I think there’s every likelihood that it wouldn’t. People want another referendum not because they genuinely think it’s the right thing to do, but because there is a thought process within some that if there was another referendum the leave voters have seen the light and remain will win. And if it doesn’t we will be back to square1. Those remain voters won’t just accept a leave vote the second time around. This time they have lies and propaganda to fall back on, next time they won’t, and then what? Another two years of uncertainty?

Coggle · 10/12/2018 11:42

Parliament should vote to revoke, in the best interests of their constituents. That's their job. They are better educated and more knowledgeable and have more time and assistance to look at the issues than the ordinary citizen.

Coggle · 10/12/2018 11:44

Once Brexit happens the UK will be packaged up and sold for the benefit of the super rich. It will be too late to go back.

Euamoonatal · 10/12/2018 11:55

I would have been a remainer (if I had a vote) and think that the campaign was ill informed but yes, whatever the margin, the people of the UK voted to leave so leave they should. It is such an embarrassing mess though. For a former Empire which knew such glory to not know where it is going now, or how it is getting there, is awful. Shame on the politicians for leading the people of the UK into this dark alley.

AdamNichol · 10/12/2018 12:02

What's the point in democracy when decisions can be over turned.

UK is a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. Political decisions are made by elected representatives on behalf of the people; not by the people themselves.
When the UK uses referenda as a means to verify the will of the people on one specific issue (rather than the amalgam of an election), it is only an advisory tool and is not binding on the government to act.

Original poster
MulticolourMophead · 10/12/2018 12:52

I do know people who voted leave because of either immigration or the NHS.

Some of them would vote remain if they had another chance. 1 in particular would vote leave if he had the chance ( racist, so his choice was always about immigration).

OP posts:
Lottapianos · 10/12/2018 13:02

'Totally agree, Childrenofthesun. Let those who made this happen reap the consequences. '

I get this and I see why it's tempting. But I live here and I'm part of this society and I actually don't want the country to go down the shitter, even to prove a point to those who were stupid enough to believe the lies.

The thought of a second referendum absolutely terrifies me - I don't think a majority for Remain is guaranteed in the slightest. And if it's a Leave vote again, we are absolutely and totally fooked. I want Article 50 revoked so we can start to claw out way out of this godawful mess. The Brexiteers are going to moan until the end of time no matter what, let's save the country and the economy and let them get on with their whingeing.

Cheekysquirrel · 10/12/2018 13:40

But won’t everyone reap the consequences - whether they voted leave or not?
I voted remain.
Any disruption to my medication will result in me dying in a matter of days.
On another thread loads of people didn’t care and said things like they’d rather give money to help people in other countries as it was the people in the UK’s fault they were in this mess. But loads of people who are going to be in a mess probably voted remain. What more could we do?
I’m not making any plans for next year post March and it’s making me feel super anxious re what will happen with my children.

RustyBear · 10/12/2018 13:51

Maybe if there’s another referendum, more than 36% of 18-24 year olds will vote, now they know the consequences for them.

Original poster
MulticolourMophead · 10/12/2018 13:57

Those who were under 18 at the time will now be eligible to vote. And in my area, both secondary schools had held their own referendum with the majority voting 80% in favour of remain. My own DD is now over 18, and would vote remain.

OP posts:
recently · 10/12/2018 13:58

What's the point in democracy when decisions can be over turned
I don't think you understand democracy. If a decision can't be changed following another VOTE that wouldn't be democracy at all. I don't understand those who say we must do it because it's the will of the people, yet when you say hang on, now we know better what Brexit entails, let's see if it's still the will of the people, they shout that it's undemocratic. Bizarre!

Topseyt · 10/12/2018 14:06

We can revoke Article 50 and we should.

We won't though, as that would be too sensible.

I voted remain and would do so again. I too rely on regular medication which is imported.

scaryteacher · 10/12/2018 14:09

Coggle Once Brexit happens the UK will be packaged up and sold for the benefit of the super rich. It will be too late to go back. If it doesn't happen, what do you think will happen under the EU? Look at Greece, Spain, Italy, riots in France and Brussels. The EU isn't green fields full of sparkly unicorn poo; it's run by a rich elite for a rich elite and their globalist friends.

They are better educated and more knowledgeable ROFL.

AdamNichol · 10/12/2018 14:14

I'm not sure remain would win a second referendum.

Some people voted on economics. They may have seen the foundation of anti-EU economic arguments crumble to mere guess work - attacked on the other side by guesswork for a no-deal scenario.

Some voted because of immigration. EU immigration was never the problem, and is actually a healthy aid to the pensions bomb and ageing population. However, the majority of the people in that rationale (majority, not all) don't engage with that level of nuance.

Others simply don't like the EU / don't like distant democracy / don't like the dominance of the Commission over the Parliament [not many who know that level of debate mind].

Other than the economic scare stories, remain has done little to sway voters from the other side. The likelihood is that ardent leavers would vote and everyone else would stay home (again).

This whole thing shows one of the weaknesses with direct democracy - or including elements of it within a representative democracy - people having the responsibility thrust upon them to make decisions where they cannot make an informed choice.
The same was true about the election system referenda a while back. It had an arbitrary 2 option choice (what if you didn't want FPTP or AV?), and loads of the literature on the pros and cons ranged from the misleading to the blatantly inaccurate.

Topseyt · 10/12/2018 14:15

I am on the fence about the idea of a second referendum. Especially if it would be a three way one.

If the choices were TM's deal, hard Brexit or remain in the EU then of course I would vote in the EU.

However, I don't think we can be sure that there would definitely be a majority for remain. I would like that to be the case, but in reality I think it more likely that remain would only increase marginally, whilst the deal or hard Brexit options would simply split the core leave vote.

Or maybe enough young voters would get out and vote, giving remain the necessary boost. Is that guaranteed though?

KnittingSister · 10/12/2018 14:19

Previously, we voted blind because we didn't have a contract. We now have a contract so can make an informed decision and have another referendum based on the contract.

Northernmum100 · 10/12/2018 14:28

I would certainly support another referendum if we could be presented with the facts in an honest and impartial way and given leave to vote again
*Here is what it looks like if we leave
*Here is what it looks like if we remain
I don't believe we were presented with the truth last time around (from either side) about what leaving would really mean to your average person so we should be given a chance to now vote based on facts , not what might be.

Northernmum100 · 10/12/2018 14:29

Knittingsister - you said it much better than I did!

Chewbecca · 10/12/2018 14:33

All my friends and family who voted leave (of which there are many) would still vote leave in a second referendum and be very determined to get their vote counted. They simply don't believe that a real problem will arise and say things like 'we were fine before, we'll be fine again'.

So my only hope of remain winning a second referendum would be the new young people that are eligible to vote and the vain hope that some remainers didn't bother but would this time. But I think it would be v v close still.

Tiscold · 10/12/2018 14:34

We should get two separate votes, shoupd we leave or remain as one vote.
And then if leave is it theresas deal or no deal.

Otherwise we will be splitting the leave vote which isn't very democratic.

Ragaroo · 10/12/2018 14:35

A vote for remain would be a vote against democracy.
If there was a 2nd ref (which there won't be) even remainers should vote leave out of support for democracy.

WhollyFather · 10/12/2018 14:38

How nice of the EU's tame court to give our Parliament permission to be sovereign, at least for a bit. And such fortuitious timing, just before May's crunch vote was due!

Article 50 will not be withdrawn and there will not be a second referendum. We leave at the end of next March on WTO terms, which delivers Brexit and will be fine.

As for all the people on here who think Project Fear is a news channel...

Coggle · 10/12/2018 15:05

It's not about being sovereign, it's about our country dealing with the EU. You know, that organisation we're a member of and whose rules we agreed to follow (and played a part in making). Not exactly surprising that the court of the EU determines questions about the rules of, you know, the EU.
This is the kind of crap we have to deal with from Leavers. And on and on. FFS.

bellinisurge · 10/12/2018 15:06

Don't engage, @Coggle .

Coggle · 10/12/2018 15:06

I can see from both your post and your name that you think that you're God and rule the UK. Actually, you're not and you don't.