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Advice sought by an employer from parents of individuals with Aspergers

79 replies

Bilbobaggins18 · 15/11/2018 00:34

Hi

I work in HR in a Tech company.

We employ many highly talented people technical roles (such as coding) some of which are diagnosed with Aspergers.

We want to do the best for all of employees. I wanted to hear from parents of children who are diagnosed with Aspergers or Autism - how can we make their working environment more comfortable for them?

For instance, I worry that they can get isolated in their technical roles, perhaps with a remote manager based in the US. We would like them to connect more with social groups locally so they have a "tribe' to
share common interests in the latest innovations within the company for instance.

I would really appreciate some feedback from parents who have sons or daughters working in tech and please share with me what they find frustrating in their workplace and what we can do better.

We hugely value these talented individuals and want to ensure they have a comfortable working environment.

Thank you !

OP posts:
picklemepopcorn · 15/11/2018 06:16

It's reasonable to ask parents, as we sometimes are aware of triggers our ASD children who grow into adults may not notice. Parents have insight into the ASD NT interface, which is the issue in this case.

There's been some good advice already. I would go with simple relaxed non judgemental language, and not conflating several issues. If you are asking about sensory concerns, don't also ask about social factors. It will muddy the waters.

So 'let me know if the noise bothers you- it's fine to wear headphones in the office, as long as you can hear the fire alarm'.

Re socialising, I'd offer something but not push it. And variety and purpose. Maybe organise a board games night or a zombie run as a change from the 'going out for a drink/meal'.

My aspies find purposeless conversation trying, but salivate at board games with pizza.

spiderplantsalad · 15/11/2018 06:49

You'd be better off asking them not parents - I had the same issues before diagnosis as I do after it.

I prefer to be able to work in low lighting, less noise and with fewer colleagues around. Clear instructions, preferably in writing so it can be referred back to, and clear feedback.

I'm not sure what kind of social stuff you're hoping for but my personal time is my own, and I'm not about to be socialising with people my employer thinks I should be. I turned down a job offer because of the expected socialising. If you want to organise a conference or something then do so, but don't say ASD employees over here, just make it available to anyone. You really don't get to force socialising on people that don't want it though - I'd quit over that.

user1471548941 · 15/11/2018 06:58

I work for one of the largest organisations in the world and have ASD. I am also trying to further our programme to employ more people with ASD.

  1. Ask them!!! I am best placed to tell you what adjustments I need but I might be too shy to ask so been given an occ health appointment and being told it’s purpose is to discuss and put things in place for me allowed me to get my adjustments in place. I would be quite insulted if anyone asked my parents.

But really, when you’ve met one person with ASD, you’ve met one, so I although I’m not so keen on your methods, I think your goal is good so will help you out.

Things I we do that work:

  1. Connecting people. We run lots of generic events about ASD; guest speakers, coffee mornings. Lots of people come to talk about their ASD children but end up opening up when they realise those of us running the event are open about us having the condition.
  1. Support. I have regular mentoring meetings with a more senior member of staff with ASD and there are many others I could book time with. This is part of our workplace culture and means if my team is getting a bit tough one day, I can wander off for a coffee and a whinge or some constructive advice from someone else who gets it.
  1. My reasonable adjustments are; allocated desk in hot desking environments (don’t have hot desking at all if you have loads of ASD people!), allocated onsite parking, noise cancelling headset that means I can take calls with no background noise, adjusted working hours so some of my working day is later when no one else is in the office, no meetings held in “huddle spaces” with no door. I also get advance warnings of fire drills, changes to procedure or working environment.
  1. Managers get trained by an external provider on the key features of ASD and how best tocommunicate with us. One of my managers was really uncomfortable that I wanted him to be really blunt with me about stuff as it allowed me to understand better as he felt very neurotypically that this was him being rude by not “flowering it up”. But he made a real effort to he clearer with me and it was SO helpful to me and I really appreciated his efforts.
  1. Change is communicated clearly. Change considered significant like change of role or manager or office is always accompanied by “before and after” occ health appointments and a meeting where my requirements are clearly stated to the people that need to know.

Things that are not helpful:

  1. Current manager is SO laid back to the extent that he thinks my condition is not a big deal on the basis that I look like I’m doing fine. He doesn’t think he needs to do the training, doesn’t amend his communication for me so I find him very vague, I have asked for another reasonable adjustment and he hasn’t taken it seriously. He’s a nice guy but it’s just not working for me and I’m going home at the end of the day and shutting down so it’s impacting the my home life. Previous manager wanted to minimise the impact of work on my home life.

However, I have such a good support network that in the new year, this will kick in and these people will help me move to a new, better trained manager.

Ultimately for the first time in my life I feel that people want me to succeed.

We are also looking at making signficant changes to our interview and recruitment practices to ensure we reach more people with ASD for roles they would be suited too. I would be fascinated to know what company you work for as we are now part of a global programme on the topic for which I soon going to a conference in Florida.

Bilbobaggins18 · 15/11/2018 07:13

Thanks user. That’s a great help.

OP posts:
TravellingFleet · 15/11/2018 07:19

As a woman with autism, I think that asking parents of adults with disabilities for guidance on HR is absurd, inefficient and offensive. It indicates an infantilisation of disabled people - that we continue to be voiceless, to have those ‘in authority’ speak for us, to be seen as too incapable to know what our needs are.

This request, though presumably well-meaning, is why I cannot afford to make my disability known at work. I need to be perceived by those around me as able to do a senior-level post in a complex, pressurised environment. I cannot afford (and I mean that quite literally - as an unmarried, childless woman, I need to have a well-paid job and appropriate pension) to be perceived as a child.

Moreover, I can assure you that my parents are unable to offer guidance on how my role might best be managed.

I will therefore do my best to identify the company for which you work and alert them to the inappropriate behaviour and beliefs of their employees as demonstrated here.

I will share this post with fellow professional women with autism, and discuss appropriate further action.

I would suggest that you ask for this thread to be deleted.

StrippingLLamaWhisperer · 15/11/2018 07:22

As an aspie my first thought was tgat wgat makes a nice environment for me wont work with others.

My second thought was 'being forced to connect with trives'? Yikes. I hate that shit. I doubt id ever choose or enjoy it no matter what you did. I dont undeestand why you need it to happen? The idea is alarming me and its not even my job Confused Seriously, socialising is HARD for me, i like to shut up and do my work, not talk about susan's new baby. I like clear, to the point, work related communications.

Carpetglasssofa · 15/11/2018 07:25

@bilbobaggins18

Contact the National Autistic Society, rather than randoms on the Internet.

HardAsSnails · 15/11/2018 07:27

I'm another autistic parent of an autistic child, you've had some good advice about making the workplace more comfortable and less stressful, but some other points:

  • look at your recruitment process. Autistic people are often really dreadful at interviews and traditional selection procedures. Think about alternative ways of assessing suitability for roles that are more reliant on demonstrating skills and less on social interaction.
  • offer a really good work experience programme for school, college and university students. Many autistic people struggle in education so think about reaching out to specialist provision too,
  • reach out to organisations like the NAS who offer support into employment. I believe GCHQ and Deutsche Bank have positive recruitment processes for autistic people.
  • provide an online forum for employees to chat, and make sure you offer different ways for employeess to communicate with managers etc. Many of us who are highly articulate still struggle with verbal interaction.
  • don't impose your social expectations on your employees, it's easy to do without even thinking.
  • if you are getting in trainers to run sessions on autism, use autistic led training firms.
Cliques · 15/11/2018 07:28

One thing that really helped where I work, was to get an autistic trainer in to talk about what autism is and how it can be supported in the workplace. It made my coworkers aware that small talk can be the greatest difficult of all, and that we all work differently. They also suggested we put together an online group for autistic employees to discuss what helps and what doesn’t. They made a big point of saying that the experts you need are the autistic people who work for you - since they’re the only ones who know what the specific problems in your workplace are.

We now have a group chat, where some people have met, and others keep it to just online, and we can discuss any issues and come up with solutions. It’s been really positive.

But make sure the trainer themselves are autistic - I think that was key. It really helped my co-workers understand me better. I didn’t have to explain it all - which is exhausting, and you always get people telling you how mild your autism must be, instead of getting it.

I’ve heard some really awful things said by non-autistic trainers too, who forgot that there would be autistic people in the audience.

Other things are recognising that a social event can take a week to recover from energy-wise, and we have to balance their worth. So if we’re not going, it’s because we can’t. We're Not being antisocial or awkward. We have to balance where we spend social energy carefully. The less we have to spend on smalltalk and unnecessary stuff, and the more our coworkers get us, the more likely we are to have the energy to spare.

TravellingFleet · 15/11/2018 07:31

There’s also been a very interesting interaction above, which would repay the OP’s reflection.

The OP posits a question. A poster gives a response. It is in some manner presumably not the response that the OP wants / is expecting. The OP responds with ‘don’t be mean’. The poster replies that they had replied to the OP’s question.

Now, this is actually an excellent example of the information given by people with autism above. That is, a poster has responded as per the explicitly stated goals of the question. This was then responded to by the NT OP with an unclear and emotional response. It is clear that in fact the OP had implicit goals that were more important than the explicit goals, though the OP may not themselves realise that. The OP presumably wanted, consciously or unconsciously, some form of emotional reassurance, rather than a response. The poster may therefore have been placed in a position where they feel that they have replied to the question and that not only have they ‘got it wrong’ but they have been “mean”and that this is this is a bad thing to have done.
The OP might wish to think about how much their dialogues at work follow this pattern of unstated requirements followed by moral judgement in which a person with a disability is deemed to have failed.

AmIAWeed · 15/11/2018 07:32

There's a scheme run by Department of Work and Pensions called disability confident. You can sign up to make a visible declaration of trying to be an inclusive employer and there's also multiple avenues for help and support from DWP and other members via specific forum's. It can support you with cognitive as well as physical disabilities and reasonable adjustments as well as improving recruitment policies to ensure all potential staff know you're a supportive employer

oldbirdy · 15/11/2018 07:34

My son will be a great coder.(he's just 17 so not in job market yet) His main problem will be getting a job. He finds it incredibly hard to speak to new people at all and certainly couldn't communicate impressively in a face to face interview. So an interview process which focuses on examining what he can do rather than what he can say will be essential.

He won't want to be connected with others in the office, though he might appreciate access to an online network eg for troubleshooting or debugging.

My son is only 1 autistic person so I wouldn't assume his experiences to be universal but the point you'd be missing if he was on your staff is that he wouldn't be feeling lonely or isolated. The coding itself would be the thing that provides fulfilment, not being pals with colleagues in a social environment. Any attempt to force social networking on any subject other than the purpose of his work would make your company a worse fit for him, not a better place to work.

All of which is why I despair at the thought of him ever being able to find work.

picklemepopcorn · 15/11/2018 07:36

Fleet, your post is hostile and aggressive. It appears to threaten OP with reporting to op's employers. Is that what you meant?

It's good that you are able to speak up in the workplace, and know what adjustments you may need. But when you have met/are one person with autism, then you know about one person with autism.

DS and DH would not be able to do this, although at 50 DH is beginning to.
They assume that the environment is as it is, and cannot be changed.
DS would not in a thousand years ask for anything from anyone.

OP is not asking relatives of the employees in question. S/he is asking for people who have lived with and loved ASD people for their insights.

Cliques · 15/11/2018 07:37

And in future it would be really great if you posed the question to autistic people as well as parents of autistic kids.

I guess the analogy, would be starting a thread saying, “I’ve got some women at work, could any dads of girls give me some tips on things I could do to make the workplace more comfortable for them?”

The dads may well have some great tips, but the women are all reading the thread wondering what the hell they would know about their adult daughters’ workplaces and why they haven’t just asked women who work Grin

Pumkinsoup · 15/11/2018 07:38

I would second Greensleeves in that I salute you for reaching out. This is such a positive initiative.
It is an important topic, what would work from ASD perspective. Nobody ever asks that.

I am on the spectrum and worked for various corporates, although not in tech, but I hope some of it would be relevant. Rereading it sounds a bit intense, please don’t take offense,

Since you mention performance management, I would first say, please don’t make it a lip service and in practice manage the employee out immediately after the condition was disclosed because of ‘litigation risks’ or whatever, sometimes by constructive dismissal tactics or through bullying – the easiest route. Because that happens a lot and is very traumatic to individuals concerned. If you hire people on the spectrum for their talent, you need to recognise that their Asperger’s is integral to and perhaps the underlying reason for it. They wouldn’t have their skills and qualities otherwise, you can’t take Asperger’s out.

Please don’t reduce it to a token of doing something minimal with sensory issues.

The most important thing is you need to enable, allow them to function in their own way. Have more autonomy and keep well intended others from micromanaging them into the NT way. Because it is the only way they can be effective, they can’t function well when pretending to be NT, it consumes huge resources. I am sure you are aware that they are wired differently, it is a different hardware and a different operating system and all that. Try to consider the far-reaching implications of this, follow it through all the way. Their talent and contribution is in doing it differently, their way, you can’t take Asperger’s out.

The definition of disability is to achieve the same goals via different means, in a different way. I think a company that enables Aspies to thrive should actually infuse their culture with the acceptance of this understanding. It should be disability-positive. The message should be ‘It is OK to function differently, it is equally valid, we value diversity’.

Look carefully to not measure their performance by neurotypical yardsticks of displayed behaviour. Aspies do build relationships and influence people, they do network, but in a different way, purposefully, when they switch on influencing mode, because they have a goal, via channels that work for them, 1:1, on the issues basis. Unstructured social gatherings don’t work for them as a channel. You also might consider that one of key feature of Aspie mind is to not veto ideas through the filter of popularity, how well it will be received, at least in first instance. So the ‘innovation tribe’ should be open minded and inclusive in culture, and not to be a ‘popularity clique’.

How many times a day they are observed chatting with colleagues? Tic
How many social gatherings are they part of? Tic
How often do they smile? Tic
How popular is what they say ? Tic
Would their peers elect them to be promoted? Tic
All this Goleman stuff is tailored on TN preference and can be toxic for Aspies in the workplace if applied literally. I mean, performance indicators like this do exist. Try not to penalise for Asperger’s behaviours, try to encourage and recognise alternative ways of reaching goals.

So on your social group thing, it could become quite impossible for them if it is unstructured and dominated by ‘popular’ characters. What might help is to have groups by topic, where an interesting issue might be discussed and contributions are welcome. Tell them explicitly how signing up and contributing to the group can help them to achieve a goal, an interest they already have. Guide them on how to play their expertise, endorse them, give them some currency for the social capital in that tribe. Tell them to sign up and contribute. They might email an idea, or join a web chat. Purposeful, deliberate, issue and interest based participation via a chosen channel.

Their tribe could be their task force /project team, so when a team or project is changed or ended, they are lost and disoriented, you need to mentor them into a new tribe.

The other thing is managers should role model the correct attitude to disability, equality and bullying. Bullying is always wrong, but Aspies seem to attract it, are more vulnerable to it, and the way management is seen to look at it is crucial. Management don’t need to bring up Aspergers and disability if nobody disclosed the condition and there is no demand. But bullying and discriminatory discourse shouldn’t be allowed to gain traction.

The other thing about disability-positive culture is to be clear that ‘reasonable adjustments’ are not an unfair advantage, they are there to eliminate the disadvantage of the disability, to put people on equal footing. It is important that NT colleagues and management understand and role model this understanding. There shouldn’t be practices that create room for NT groups of people to prevent and veto adjustments for the Aspies. It is easier to avoid such situations than manage them. There was a thread recently, where a person with ASD asked for lunch breaks at regular times, not having to negotiate it with others all the time, and there was an outcry that this in unfair to the others (at that workplace and on MN thread). The negotiation and uncertainty creates huge disadvantage and anxiety for the Aspie for a relatively petty issue. This creates bad climate and prevents the disabled person from functioning. Autonomy is key, decoupling the autistic person from the decisions by groups of others on minor modalities which have disproportionate effect on Aspies functioning. Obviously you wouldn’t be changing all lighting into pink for one person, but there is no need to prevent one person from wearing pink glasses… [just an example, I don’t mean pink glasses is a thing]

Have clear policies, boundaries, rules for autistic person to comply with (after considering they don’t put at a disadvantage etc), be clear and fair in expectations. Be clear on the parameters of the business – what to achieve, within what time and budget, with what constrains, whom ask for input, special considerations – spell politics explicitly via mentors, buddies. But choose the battles as it were, enable flexibility on how they manage themselves.

Have mentors, buddies, who are genuinely committed to equality, who wouldn’t ridicule behind their back. Have regular feedback from the manager. They say that autism is an anxiety disorder. When Aspies are uncertain of their standing, of what is going on around them, they get anxious and can make things worse. It is important to feel supported and informed by your manager. Knowing whom to trust.

I don’t mean it’s necessary to ‘diagnose’, label people, talk openly about disability and law if nobody identifies as disabled, or on the spectrum. But I think it is important for the culture to project, for the management to role model those principles, the values, be enabling, inclusive, validating and accommodating to the ‘quirkiness’.

TravellingFleet · 15/11/2018 07:42

I appreciate that you may feel that my response, as a woman who lives with this disability, is not the gratitude that you might wish me to show. The ongoing stigma of this disability is such that I am actively keeping it secret.

Yes, I do mean that I would be quite happy, in this case, to make a company aware that an employee is, supposedly on their behalf, taking inappropriate steps to educate themself about a disability. I could not inform them of who that employee is, since that is not known, but I could explain to them that the nature of the approach is inappropriate.

Bilbobaggins18 · 15/11/2018 07:49

The OP presumably wanted, consciously or unconsciously, some form of emotional reassurance, rather than a response.

Not at all.

I’ve received some really helpful advice and great insights. I have also contacted the national autistic society but I think on this site you get additional valuable insight.

Thanks

OP posts:
Bilbobaggins18 · 15/11/2018 07:57

Thanks for all of that @oldbirdy

I think this commentbyou made is particularly key:

The other thing about disability-positive culture is to be clear that ‘reasonable adjustments’ are not an unfair advantage

I think a disability positive culture, when done right is just part of the natural culture which works for everyone without having to consciously make adjustments.

OP posts:
picklemepopcorn · 15/11/2018 07:57

I do not expect you to show gratitude, Fleet. Several people with ASD have appreciated the OP's request and responded positively, several have not. Your opinion does not overrule the others.

oldbirdy · 15/11/2018 07:59

Bilbo
That wasn't me...think it was pumpkin.

Pumkinsoup · 15/11/2018 08:02

'Somebody wants me to succeed.'

user1471548941 your experience almost makes me believe again...
Some of my work experience was like running from napalm. I totally get what TravellingFleet is saying. It is like Blade Runner - never let them find you out, they will go after you.

TravellingFleet · 15/11/2018 08:07

And several people have expressed concern.

This is my daily lived experience - the belief that someone with my disability is incapable of knowing what they need, is in the position of a child. Yes, I am deeply upset by it, to the point where I am shaking and finding it ineffective to type.

Let’s think about the likely progression opportunities for staff in an organisation where HR is quietly diagnosing people with a disability and then deciding that that disability makes people unable to vocalise their needs. It’s well meant, I’m sure, but it’s not well done.

WhyAmISoCold · 15/11/2018 08:09

There are many posters on here with aspergers/ASD. Why don't you ask them instead of parents of children with it? We can give you a far better understanding given we live with it.

Don't force a social group. I would bloody hate that in my work. Being expected to stick in a group because we all share a condition is patronising and irritating.

TravellingFleet · 15/11/2018 08:10

Pumpkin’s post higher up the thread is extremely helpful, I’d say - or at least is if you have Aspergers ;-)

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 15/11/2018 08:12

I have Asperger's and, honestly, it would be a nightmare if my employer tried to make me socialise because they thought it would be good for me. I spend time with people I want to be with, not because it's good for me or because I'm supposed to be with them. And just because other people are on the spectrum it doesn't necessarily mean that I want to socialise with them.

What I need from an employer - as has been mentioned above - is good, clear, constructive feedback and a work environment that allows me (within reason) to have some control over sensory input.

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