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What does the word 'butch' mean to you? Is it more about gender or sexuality?

143 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/10/2018 21:01

Just trying to figure out answers to this question for some work I'm doing. It's absolutely nothing relevant to MN - I'm researching historical ideas from 500 years ago, but finding myself wondering what words we'd use to describe certain women today. As a break from work, I watched Hannah Gadsby's 'Nanette' where she says someone wrote to her saying she had a duty to identify as transgender rather than butch, and it made me think. What do you think being 'butch' is? Could you be butch without being a lesbian, do you think?

Please ignore if this is boring or intrusive!

OP posts:
AvoidingDM · 05/10/2018 01:41

In my eyes butch is stocky / muscular certainly not fat.
Rugby players are much more butch than footballers.

I notice a few posters commenting about females who identify as butch. Being curious wheres the line between identifying as a butch woman and being a transman??

Trills · 05/10/2018 07:59

Being curious wheres the line between identifying as a butch woman and being a transman??

If you mean "how do I tell what gender this person is?", you wait and see if it comes up. Or ask, if you have a reason why you want/need to know. If you're worried about misgendering someone, you can construct your sentences without saying "he" or "she" until you have more clarity.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/10/2018 08:27

Being curious wheres the line between identifying as a butch woman and being a transman??

I think this is quite contested. Leslie Feinberg, who wrote Stone Butch Blues, eventually identified as both trans and butch. OTOH Hannah Gadsby (stand-up comedian whose show Nanette is on Netflix and is a bit of a hit atm) describes how she doesn't like it when people presume she 'should' be a transman rather than a butch woman.

I agree with other posters that intention comes into it, but IMO they only look like very similar positions if you think it's all about gender and not about sexuality (in my personal view). I am really struggling to explain why, though!

Lots of younger women seem to go through a stage of identifying as butch before identifying as trans, but the only transman I know well, and have known for a long time, never to my knowledge identified as butch or as a lesbian. He's married to a man and has children. So I don't think the two things always go together.

I guess somehow I see being 'butch' as quite a mature identity compared to being (say) a tomboy.

OP posts:
IntensiveCareBear · 05/10/2018 08:33

All the butch women I have dated (around 6) have been tall and slim. Non of them have gender issues or transisioned. Theyre just butch, they like the aesthetic, as I do. Shirts and suits on a woman are powerful and sexy to me.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 08:45

Butch woman =/= transman no matter what the genderists might claim in their franctic attempts to erase lesbians e.g. "transing" any women in history who did anything that is coded masculine >> Joan of Arc being an example. Although I don't know if she was a lesbian! You get the drift though.

To me it ties back to the way by grandad would snort and exclaim "she thinks she's a man!" derisively at any woman who dared have an opinion on business, finance, was changing a tyre, or anyhting really other than looking after men and children.

A lesbian is a woman no matter how she dresses. A lesbian who wears a suit or is "butch" in other presentation styles > is not a man and does not want to be a man. She's a woman.

Like I say it's highly sexist to say a woman who wears a suit and loves women is "really a man" or "wants to be a man".

This trans stuff would have homosexuality wiped out. Because it is a bar to some dicks getting in somem cunts. Men have always been confused at best by lesbians and expressing outright hatred / violence / rape at worst.

lottiegarbanzo · 05/10/2018 08:47

On the trans / butch distinction, wouldn't it depend on whether you think sex is mutable? So, if you see sex as discrete, m or f, then you're always 'this type of man' or 'that type of woman'. You can still see gender as a continuum. You can be even more playful with gender than that and take styles from the far end of the gender contiunuum, 'butch man' ones.

I suppose I'd imagine (and I am guessing) butch women to be very comfortable in their own bodies. That comfortableness and confidence is part of what comes across, in what I perceive as a butch demeanour.

IntensiveCareBear · 05/10/2018 08:48

Thankyou nothing!

I find it really offensive and frustrating to hear that a lot of people think butch women are one step away from being trans. It's miles away. Not even on the same page.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/10/2018 08:53

I agree plenty of butch women wouldn't think being butch is remotely like being trans.

But where it gets problematic is that others, like Leslie Feinberg, do think butch is a trans identity.

To put my cards on the table, I'm not remotely butch. DP wouldn't typically use the term to refer to herself in isolation, but does refer to herself as 'butch mummy' as distinct from 'femme mummy' sometimes (she reads DD Peepo with the parents renamed accordingly. She would totally wear 1950s Peepo dad's knitwear).

But it seems very hard to explain to people 'outside' these circles that there might be, not just a difference between being butch and being trans, but even quite a big difference.

OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 08:53

It's because it props up under-simmering ideas around gender and sex

People are more comortable if they say "oh she wants to be a man" > that is easier to process than "she's a woman and she's very happy like that".

A lot of transing of children in religious communities and of adults in oppressive regimes with firm gender roles >> Iran.

The fact that people have accepted trans so easily shows up, thinking about it,that homophobia is still prevalent in socoety. Not the in your face punchy sort - as often in teh UK > but an underlying attitude of thinking really it's not quite right, not quite normal. Wouldn't she be happier as a man? She clearly wants to be one. And then the world rights itself >> women are soft and pretty and fancy men, men are harder and more butch and fancy women.

Totally regressive.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/10/2018 08:54

And, actually, the Joan of Arc thing doesn't help. We can't say she was a lesbian any more than we could say she was trans.

It's really hard to apply terminology retrospectively. And this is what I'm usually looking to do, so ...!

OP posts:
IntensiveCareBear · 05/10/2018 08:57

Would be call a gay man who wears pink and floral t-shirts a trans woman? Or is he just feminine? If he put a skirt on does that make him trans? Are all Scottish men trans? I don't think a garment defines your sex. Genuinly interested.

Lots of straight women wear suits to work.

So what is it that starts to throw butch women on the trans pile? The short hair? Brouges? Or do you have to tick a certain number of boxes before you go from woman in a suit to butch to trans?

Is it like bingo?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/10/2018 08:57

I do agree there's something really strange about the 'she wants to be a man' idea.

But then, something I find confusing is that butch women rarely look, to me, like men. They look like butch women. But clearly some people do think they look the same. Take Hannah Gadsby. To me she doesn't at all look like a man, but she says people make the mistake a lot, and sometimes for the whole space of a conversation.

So I think it's people seeing what they expect to see, too.

OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 08:57

I'm not saying she was a lesbian!

In fact I specifically said I didn't know.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/10/2018 08:57

I know!

I was responding, not correcting.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/10/2018 08:58

She's the classic difficult example. Or Anne Lister is another one. Hugely politicized but it doesn't half make it hard to explain.

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 05/10/2018 09:14

Well, as a heterosexual woman, I can certainly say that I feel a difference in the presence of butch women, to men, in terms of my own sense of safety.

I wonder, do trans men take on the boundaryless leeryness, objectification and sense of entitlement towards women that some natal men have, or do you have to be grow up with that?

NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 09:17

It's not tricky though really surely?

Lebsians are women who love other women and may dress in a variety of styles. On the "scene" and historically certain styles have additional meaning within the lesbian comminty.

Lesbians are women and not men, not "like" men, don't want to be men. If society finds that weird or enraging, as many have and still do, then that is a problem with society.

Transmen are women who want to be men / feel "inside" that they are men.

Completely different.

The trans implication that gay men and lesbians really, deep down want to the the opposite sex is homophobic and sexist (enforcing gender roles).

Thisnamechanger · 05/10/2018 09:25

some men seem to rely on a very simple set of visual clues and short hair = man

I think you're right. Since I cut my hair short and shaved on the side the amount of street harassment I experience is at least half as much. Great for me!

NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 09:27

Sorry if my language around this is not right >

I'm not a lesbian.

Clothing always has been an indicator or what group you belong to. Obviosuly sexuality is a bit more fundamental than being a goth or an organic hippy person, but still, it's about groups, yes "identities" and so on.

Occurs to me then that many trans people see styles coded for men or women in the same way as they see a hipster's look or a mod? Do they think that when men and women choose their clothes they are choosing them to demonstrate that they are in a certain "group" > the group being "man" or "woman"? And not that it's about adhering to norms? In which case their arguments make more sense (although are still bollocks):

Women wear dresses / feminine "cut" trousers and makeup and have long hair to show that they belong to group "woman" the same as a goth wears black or a mod wears drainpipe trousers

Therefore if you wear these clothes you are demonstraating to the world that you belong to the group "woman" > same as a goth does when they put on all their stuff

Women say "no this doesn't make you a woman" > they are being bastards and saying even though you've got the rigth clothes, you still can't join our gang

Maybe? A lot of what I have read from transwomen of the more shouty variety makes sense if this is what they think. That women are "aggresively policiing womanhood" and we "don't own it" and so on. Same as a Goth might be fucked off on being told they aren't a "real goth" as they can't recite teh sisters of mercy back catalogue.

What they miss is that this is not what is going on with women and clothes and sex and gender AT ALL.

SkinnyMalinkys · 05/10/2018 09:30

Nothing on telly. Completely agree. Very eloquently put.

velourvoyageur · 05/10/2018 10:02

Even as a child (when I suspected I would turn out gay but all this meant to me was ‘fancies other women’ rather than being associated with any wider culture – ‘gay’ for me was never constructed wrt gendering/stereotyping) I had no patience with words like ‘tomboy’, ‘camp’ or ‘butch’, and I still don't use them, but recognise that butch has its own established and valued culture. I’m seeing someone who describes herself as butch. I have long hair and like dresses. We’re more alike than we are different, tbh, I think. The concept butch has little resonance for me, so I wouldn't tie it to either sexuality, gender, sex or anything really, and given the variety of opinions here I'd say it's not very solidly defined for others either.

The reason it's not a word I would use (beyond to describe 'someone who actively participates in butch culture' - idk, getting a tattoo saying 'i am butch', going to butch only events??) is because I think it does necessarily entail using words I don’t like to use, such as masculine and feminine, to describe people, as I think we have always to take words in their historical contexts, and I do think these are inseparable from conceptions of the male and female sexes having complementary traits. IMO it’s naïve to think we can use them purely to describe a way of dressing etc, as if as concepts they are not aligned specifically to one sex each, and as if we don’t use them to mediate how we see and treat the sexes. So to talk about a woman being masculine – having some ‘man traits’ – I find this very problematic. If we’re bent on causally linking personality and preferences to M/F categories at all, then why doesn’t the fact of this person being a woman override any associations we might have with ‘man traits’, and make it a ‘woman trait’? Surely we do this because we place such emphasis on the body, and the fact that these traits have traditionally been seen to be housed in male bodies.
So the fact that we can see preference for short hair housed in a woman’s body should then, as I said, override any association with ‘man’. And following that logic would mean we’d have to abandon making any distinction at all, since having short hair can then very easily lie in the domain of ‘woman’ and ‘man’. Surely then it has nothing to do with being a man or a woman, since it makes no sense to identify a causal link in this way when sexual difference bears no relevance here. You can perhaps say ‘humans like to have short hair’ - but then not everyone does, and not everyone who has long hair has given much thought to it and vv. And so perhaps if we can’t identify any such causal link, then having short hair is not such a massive clue to the nature of, or proof of, a self construed as stable and constant we’d like to think exists? So anyway. I find ‘butch’ a difficult concept, especially as it seems to rely on the notion of our having a ‘unified self’ or essence, but clearly others get something from it.

HeronLanyon · 05/10/2018 10:17

Nothingontellyagain, lottiegarbanzo, intensivecatebear, velourvoyageur - hear hear. Well said ! I despair that assuming those who display/behave/simply are different from societal and patriarchally constructed ‘norms’ are viewed and/or view themselves as needing to or being trans. Wiping out any chance of women being strong/powerful/don’t give a shit about what society thinks about how they look or behave/being comfortable being themselves as women etc being accepted. Overwhelmingly more damaging for women I think.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 10:36

"some men seem to rely on a very simple set of visual clues and short hair = man"

This was demonstrated well in BB house with the drag queen, when the guy came out in drag > with all the trappings of "sexy lady" in popular culture > ie big hair, lots of makeup, lots of leg etc, the straight men were visibly discomfited. As their brains were seeing the outfit and processing "sexy lady" but they knew it was a man.

This is a really worrying statement on how men see women.
That our clothes are what we "are" > that our clothes give "signals" > that we are so utterly lacking in personhood / realness that our clothes are more what a woman is than what is underneath.
The consequences of this for women and girls > men seeing our extermal "look" as everything and not seeing anything underneath, no person > are grim. This is where "short skirt > signals > asking for it" comes from. They can't or won't see a 13yo schoolgirl who is following fashion > they don't look at the face or the body language or anything at all > just "short skirt wants a fucking I'll go and have a go" etc.

A lot of the trans movement as it stands now, only works with a MALE view of women > that we are not whole actual real people with independent lives thoughts etc. We are simply stereotypes. Shells. Animated dolls.

One part of it. There are other parts too obv. This part crosses over with a very sexualised view of women and girls as well though.

Note it's always "sexy trans girls" not sexy trans women. This is male thinking.

witchmountain · 05/10/2018 11:54

I think you're right. Since I cut my hair short and shaved on the side the amount of street harassment I experience is at least half as much. Great for me!

You don't even need to shave it in my experience. I've cycled between short and long hair for my entire adult life. Incidents of street harassment with short hair - virtually zero!

Batteriesallgone · 05/10/2018 12:10

My only problem with threads like this starting to get very analytical about style and people’s choice of presentation is that plenty of people do not choose their style.

I cannot wear skirts and dresses currently due to my birth injuries making my continence situation somewhat unreliable. Given that I am also running round after small children all day and up breastfeeding all night I simply do not have the headspace to be constantly low level paranoid that my skirt has ridden up exposing my hefty underwear / I’ve got VPL / I’ve sat down without tucking my skirt under and now I risk leaking wee onto the bus seat. I wear mum jeans as a uniform from necessity.

Similarly my baby’s feeding issues mean I need full breast access at all times so I live in H&M feeding vests and Henley tops. Again it’s a uniform born of necessity.

Inside I identify as a glamorous woman in heels and a gorgeous flowery dress, subtly trailing perfume and with dramatic eye make up.

Your post referencing your partner’s pregnancy sounds a little similar OP - in that the realities of the physical impact of being a women have encroached somewhat on her desired style. I don’t know where I’m going with this really. Only that I do despair sometimes that how someone dresses is seen as some kind of view into their soul - it’s such a fortunate position to be in, to be able to genuinely choose your clothing.

Although now I type that I wonder if it is somehow relevant - I think people are much much less likely to assume a butch woman is a lesbian than assume a man in a dress and heels is gay. Possibly this is because many of us had mothers who needed to walk the dog / dig the garden / take out the bins who dressed somewhat ‘butch’ day to day in order to be comfortable and get shit done. I imagine few of us had dads walking round in heels.

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