What does the word 'butch' mean to you? Is it more about gender or sexuality?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just trying to figure out answers to this question for some work I'm doing. It's absolutely nothing relevant to MN - I'm researching historical ideas from 500 years ago, but finding myself wondering what words we'd use to describe certain women today. As a break from work, I watched Hannah Gadsby's 'Nanette' where she says someone wrote to her saying she had a duty to identify as transgender rather than butch, and it made me think. What do you think being 'butch' is? Could you be butch without being a lesbian, do you think?

Please ignore if this is boring or intrusive!

"Not related to sexual orientation at all unless for the sake of stereotypes."

This gets close to erasing the language of butch identities from the lesbian community. It's not simply about appearance, it can be about relationship roles or preferences.

YY, brill, that's the book.

absent - yes, I think I feel like that too. But can see why someone might not if they've honestly not heard the term used as a specifically lesbian term.

FWIW, I know people who still date in very butch/femme circles where butch women wouldn't date other butch women.

Wasn't the dog in Tom and Jerry called Butch?

Butch to me is someone with that same build, burly, no nonsense, no frills, not really a macho attitude, decent, reliable and sturdy, someone who could haul and lift, a farmhand, a Desperate Dan the cow pie man. It isn't a fashion or style alone , have to have some heft!!! Can't be skinny and butch.
Also a name for fashion/attitude/style in lesbian culture, hefty but not always. And often a comedic tag amongst my campest gay male friends.

Yes. I'm in New York regularly as my wife-to-be lives there, and interestingly I see a lot more overtly butch/ femme couples there, than in London lgbtq spaces.

You absolutely can look butch without being gay, though I don't think a lot of conventional straight women would claim that identity. Obvs the word will have slightly altered meanings when applied to sexuality, identity and fashion. And it's a different descriptor if applied to you by someone else than if you apply it to yourself, your identity, your look etc.

My someone above can be male or female, gay or straight,joking or serious BTW

At the moment in my circles the only women who identify themselves as "butch" without any tongue in their cheek are lesbians who are not aggressive nor macho, quite gently spoken, hefty of build, wonderfully comfortable in their skins, almost completely immune to pressures to be outwardly "feminine" and not afraid to take up space in the world.

I suppose there is a difference between butch-as-identity and butch-as-style.

You might say 'I am (a) butch' just as you might say 'I am gay/a lesbian' and it would be about your identity, who you ARE.

Or you might say 'I look (like a) butch' which is about a style, and I wonder if it essentially says 'I look like what you would expect someone who IS a butch to look like' (but to me it is just a look, and doesn't define who I am).

If someone said to me 'I am a butch' I would take that to mean that they are a masculine-looking lesbian (who might or might not only date femme lesbians).

If someone said to me '(gender neutral name) looks very butch' I would make no assumptions regarding their sex nor sexuality. I would imagine a person, male or female, who highlights any 'masculine' aspects of their body and hides/downplays any 'feminine' aspects, and dresses in a male-associated way; but perhaps more working-class man clothes than suit and tie. Dunno why.

Androgynous for me implies a woman interested in conventional fashion but approaches it from a masculine angle, so a ‘man’ suit or a tux but it has been cut to fit. Androgynous and baggy clothing doesn’t go together. It’s is an expensive look IMO. It’s all slender, noble, it might be masculine style but that doesn’t mean it’s practical.

Butch on the other hand is practical. Checked shirts. Flat shoes. Clothes might be baggy, or not cut for curves because they were actually bought from the men’s section (not women’s section styled to look man’s section if that makes sense).

I suppose that comes from the andros/gynae etymology - or is it entymology? Anyway, words, not insects.

Etymology is words, entomology is insects.

Androgynous clothing can totally be baggy. Bowie-style blazers, wide cut trousers... this is the best thread!

Is the fat thing coming from society at large being unwilling and unable to see a woman showing off her figure as anything other than fat and therefore having something to hide?

Hard to tell what sort of body shape a woman has if she's wearing baggy jeans and a hoodie so some might refer to her as butch because she's refusing to play along with female socialisation.

Never heard of stone but could very much see myself being in that category as I hate being touched at all but love giving others pleasure.

Men can be butch > I mean in the sense that a certain type of masculine man can be described as "butch".

It just means masculine, to me.

Obviously has a specific meaning on the lesbian scene. Which I'm not part of so can't comment.

In general it's about a certain type of masculinity >> a person who wears practical clothes, is strong, and does things for themselves.

Not RTFT sorry but that's what it means to me.

Here's what the word butch means to me:
checked shirt with muscular arms and torso underneath
faded jeans
chunky work boots or DMs
cropped hair
maybe tattoos
outdoorsy
very blunt, intolerant of shows of emotion
mainstream in tastes re music, food, sport etc
drives a truck, van or motorbike
working class

Not quite sure why it's that specific but it is

For me it's gender.

Butch lesbian is a statement of style (gender > masculine) then sexuality.

waxy1 that link was fascinating, thanks, I love knowing where words have come from.

Is gender nothing more/different than style though?

For me, gender is something you are socialised into from infancy, and is very hard to shake, even when you are aware of it. Whereas style is something we choose. We can choose conforming or non-conforming styles depending on how we are feeling today.

All the while our preferences may be in part a result of our gendered socialisation. Because I have been socialised as a girl, I have certain style options that will feel easy and comfortable to me, that I know will cause no confrontation or that I know will make me feel good about myself. If I had been socialised as a boy, the same style options would feel different to me: The thing I wear as a woman to feel comfortable and unremarkable, might make me feel daring and confrontational if I had been socialised as a boy.
So whereas style is choice, our choices are shaped by our gendered socialisation, with all the experiences that entailed. And by the gendered expectations the people around us still hold.

So I am a bit wary of saying butch is gender because it is a style. I think it may be more complicated than that.

There is a woman in my social group that the men refer to (behind her back) as "butch". She is quite petite (about 5 foot 2) but has really broad shoulders and walks in quite a "stocky" way. She also never wears dresses or skirts although the clothes she does wear aren't necessarily masculine.

So in this case it's to do with demeanour and physicality rather than sexuality as she is straight and in a relationship with a man.

I suppose there is a difference between butch-as-identity and butch-as-style.

Absolutely.

Is it a noun or an adjective?

If someone is "a butch" that's very specific.

If someone is "butch" that's much more vague.

But someone who is "a butch" can always be described as "butch".

YY, I think that distinction is useful too, trills.

This thread is making me think, though. DP never wears dresses or skirts, and maybe 50% of her wardrobe is from the men's section (less since she was pregnant as they don't fit so well). She has short hair and is often mistaken for a man, though I don't think she actually looks masculine at all. She would be quite upset to be called 'a butch,' and it's only since she's been with me that she's slightly made her peace with the adjective version. It never occurred to me any of this could be because she thinks the word might suggest being stocky or fat. I must ask her.

OTOH I have a friend who is a tiny, petite and slight-figured woman, who dresses in very dapper men's clothing (think waistcoats with pocket squares, nice tailoring, sharp suits), and she would be delighted to be seen as butch.

I know for some women it's about tapping into a lesbian history, and that's very important to them. I think I would call women who're straight but dress in a masculine way 'gender nonconforming' or 'gender resistant'. But then, most of the women I know who do this are paid-up feministy types who are quite keen to talk about gender, and I suppose that makes a difference.

To me the word butch brings to mind an image of someone like Lea DeLaria

Re the 'butch tending to be associated with being stocky ', it's interesting that most / all of the butch women photographed here have a stocky physique
butchontap.com

I'm a lesbian and I LOVE butch women. I do like the masculinity but it's definitely more a sexuality thing than gender. The women I like who are butch have no questions around their gender, they are 100% women.

I think intention comes into it too. When you say, I think I would call women who're straight but dress in a masculine way 'gender nonconforming' or 'gender resistant'. it makes it sound very intentional. But if I wear trousers, or clothes from the men’s section, it’s because I prefer the colour or shape or fit or function. I’m not resisting gender or trying to present a particular gender, in fact I’m not really acknowledging ideas of gender at all - I’m just getting dressed.

Whereas my lesbian friend who I think would describe herself as butch has said to me that “you can have a lot of fun with gender”. She’s acknowledging the stereotypes and subverting them.

Oh and by gender she means gender. She’s not questioning her sex.

I certainly wouldn't describe masculine dress as 'butch' - in my head butch is a very particular look

Short hair and masculine dress might be 'tomboy' if you were trying to put a label on a given style, but I imagine them as two different aesthetics. Though it's all arbitrary and people are individuals not labels!

But for example I would imagine someone like Jenny Shimizu as a tomboy vs Lea DeLaria as butch