Do bright children do just as well in state school as private?

[Alelujah]

My friend's academically able DS has just started Private school (Year 10). They do 1 hour and forty minutes of homework every night and are assessed weekly in exam conditions to prepare them to deal with the stress of exams. The school has selective entry and teachers only have able students to cater for. There is no classroom disruption at all as the students and parents are heavily invested in the education process.

Meanwhile my DD in her Comp finds that many lessons disrupted by students who don't want to be there. They don't get much homework to support learning. Teachers probably don't ask them to do much as they know it wouldn't be done by a large number of students. They have to be realistic.

I can't help thinking that the commonly stated opinion that a bright child will do as well in any school is utter bollocks! It looks like children in private schools are massively advantaged.

@BertrandRussell but you're pretty much guaranteed that with private school. Unless it's very bad. Good schools, even when they have that ethos, can't always guarantee it with class sizes etc

Bertram, you originally said bright well supported kids do well anywhere.
Now you've changed your mind and seem to accept that some state schools are crap. You can't have it both ways. Another thing to remember on threads like this is that people often seem to compare crap state schools with good private schools.

I still say bright well supported kids do well anywhere. It is bright unsupported and not so bright kids who suffer in crap schools.

What do you mean by well supported?

Do well has open broad meaning. On these threads so many posters say how well they did, from crap comp but they were not happy there. For me, doing well is also living well, being in environments that suit us, around people we will make friends with as well as for filling our potential.

Are you suggesting that clever children can only make friends with other clever children?

no. What a strange inference. I'm suggesting people are happier in any environment that suits them. Some dc do not feel as comfortable in some environments. So for me... Although the dc maybe doing well in terms of grades, they are not really maximising their life are they, stuck with people they have little in common with. I think that goes for all of us to an extent doesn't it? It goes both ways, round ways, up and down ways.

Why are you assuming that bright children will have little in common with children in state school?

I agree anecdotally with the point made upthread about bright state kids doing well at uni. At my private school we were hugely spoon-fed and coached for exams, and it was a huge shock when I went to uni and had to do a much more independent style of learning (particularly as a humanities student with only a few contact hours each week). By contrast, I had some state educated friends who absolutely excelled because they were so motivated. I also think confidence is hugely important as well, and private schools can help generate that.

I’m with BertrandRussell. Truly bright children do fine wherever with proper parental support. Many, many state schools have far superior teaching and outcomes to independent schools. Many many independents are shockingly bad with poorly qualified teachers who rely on selection of intake to achieve mediocre results. I had bright children, they were very, very happy in the state comprehensive system and achieved excellent academic results. They weren’t alone. Many of their peers also achieved very good academic results from non selective state schools. Goodness, a good number even made medicine, vets and Oxbridge.......who’d ever have thought that happened from bog standard comprehensives?

I think a very bright child will always do well at any school. But I do think a selective school will make their learning experience much more supportive, calmer and more beneficial all round.

Surely this mostly depends on where you live which in itself is a form of selection. If I was in catchment for greycoats or Latymer or Woodford girls or broxbourne girls or leigh on sea grammar or Chelmsford or Colchester etc..... I would espouse the virtuous wonders of me using the state system. I don't - I live in an area where the only outstanding schools are religious or live on the doorstep at a 500k premium. Our local struggles to get to 30% c+ passes for gcse. It doesn't have the facilities to offer a number of subject eg separate sciences I consider a basic and doesn't have a sixth form. If dd can make the 11+ she is in a tiny state primary so no guarantees - although she is v bright - I'll go private all the way. The alternative being I pick up my entire family including elderly relatives that live with us and downsize to achieve the leafy comp dream or I invest in hopefully a really happy and productive 7 years for her. I went to oxford for uni - actually hope she doesn't and chooses something less pressured but if she loves a subject as I did - I'll give anything to make sure she has the opportunity to get there and it isn't happening at our local school.

Hmmm it’s a tough one. It’s not the bright child fault obviously but at state the Teachers spend so much time helping everyone else, and I’m told of you're bright at state school you are held back until the rest of the year catches up with you, you’re not allowed to work in advance.

You can pretty much work it out. Take the top 30 Maths, English, Science results from the state school and compare that with the private school. Often the answer is yes academically, but they way outperform career wise. Could be connections, (over?!)confidence, wider general knowledge.

DD is a very bright kid, at local State school. The school is one of top 5 % in country, very strict, sets lots of homework, very little social problems such as gangs, knives etc, very inclusive. I on the other hand went to private school. Saying my school was better than hers just because it is State v Private is nonsense - it really does depend on the school.

It’s interesting on this thread that everything is about grades. My OH left a state school with straight A in all his O grades and A levels and was the first to go into medicine.He did very well but even many years on it’s the oxbridge elite that are ending up in the more senior jobs within his profession. I read up thread someone mention that private school kids are spoon fed. Even in private you don’t get good grades if your not bright enough. Good jobs does not always equate to top grades. One of DS friends ended up doing BtEC at his private school as he didn’t get the grades to do A levels. He skipped off to do some mediocre course at uni and is now working in the city earning a lot of money for a young man. He is one of the most confident boys I have met. In private yes they focus on results however they prioritise extra curricular, CCF, music, sport, drama etc etc. If your good at sport they will push you at sport a few of my DS friends at Uni play for top Rugby teams and football teams. Some have represented England at the olympics. It’s not all about grades but it tends to be at state.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33775082 www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/01/18/private-school-children-tougher-state-educated-peers-study-finds/amp/

Oops typo .... my DS friends play for top Rigby clubs ..ignore the at Uni.... I need coffee

Yes- if I was going to use private school, the results would not be the reason. It would be all the extra “stuff” that they have the money to provide.

Depends. On how good your local school is.

Local schools are all very good here.

Nearest, catholic school is very good, very strict, and encourages children to aim to the highest, Oxford/Cambridge/RG. Drama, rowing, rugby - the extras.

Loads of Parents seem to be loaded!, in very good jobs, and heavily invested in every aspect of the children's lives.

Other than smaller classes, and less disruption than private, I'm struggling to see how any of these children are disadvantaged. Or missing out on what exactly, compared to private.

I am happy with it for both ds's.

I've had several friends and DH have similar experience with private schools.
My DH went to private school as he was a bright kid it was suggested by his primary school teacher so he went on scholarship.
He readily admits that they taught him how to pass exams, would assist with a lot of things/chase etc so although he got amazingly exam results he wasn't very disciplined at self motivation for working.
I think they are great for opportunities not so great for children learning self motivation. I went to a state school where I learnt to block out disruption and work hard for myself.

Look at the top 100 schools in the country by Oxbridge acceptance rate (handily available from the Sutton Trust). Only a sprinkling of highly selective state schools can even compete with the independents, and even then they max out at 20% versus the best independents at 50%. An actual comprehensive would be lucky to crack the list at all.

"Do well?" Sure. "Do just as well?" No way - just look at the statistics.

“Look at the top 100 schools in the country by Oxbridge acceptance rate”

I suspect that says far more about Oxbridge and itsparticular hoops than anything else. Private schools obviously know far more about how to get their kids through the hoops than most state schools do.

A bright child won't do well 'anywhere'. What about crap schools where bullying is rife and not dealt with, where the prevalent attitude that being enthusiastic about learning is 'swotty' and sneered at. No amount of parental support will help you there. I went to a comp like this, self harm and suicide attempts by bullied kids who had reached their limits by yrs 10/11 was not unusual. Drugs, underage sex, fights also endemic. Bright kids that dropped out or stayed and underachieved. Parents that were naive to how bad the school was so unable to provide the right support or pull their dc out.

"I suspect that says far more about Oxbridge and itsparticular hoops than anything else. Private schools obviously know far more about how to get their kids through the hoops than most state schools do."

However the schools manage it, the private school pupils clearly "do better" since Oxbridge is still the pinnacle of UK higher education. You might equate it to jumping through hoops, others (more plausibly) would relate it to their superior all-round education and cultivation of the intellectual qualities Oxbridge looks for in their interviews and subject-specific admissions tests. There are far more A-level students with a string of As than there are places at the top universities, and private schools clearly help their students distinguish themselves in the ways that improve their chances of being accepted.