Do bright children do just as well in state school as private?

[Alelujah]

My friend's academically able DS has just started Private school (Year 10). They do 1 hour and forty minutes of homework every night and are assessed weekly in exam conditions to prepare them to deal with the stress of exams. The school has selective entry and teachers only have able students to cater for. There is no classroom disruption at all as the students and parents are heavily invested in the education process.

Meanwhile my DD in her Comp finds that many lessons disrupted by students who don't want to be there. They don't get much homework to support learning. Teachers probably don't ask them to do much as they know it wouldn't be done by a large number of students. They have to be realistic.

I can't help thinking that the commonly stated opinion that a bright child will do as well in any school is utter bollocks! It looks like children in private schools are massively advantaged.

Bright kids will do fine in state provided (1) the teaching is not substandard and (2) there isn’t a culture that looks down on/actively disrupts learning.

Which is why my kids are going private, because our local school is awful.

Yeah peer pressure is a big thing. There's definitely more of a culture of "it's cool to do well" at the private school.

Of course. That is why public school alumni are so overrepresented in top jobs from politics to legal 500 to banking to you name it

Er that’s abot unconsciousn bias and connections not ability. People are more likely to hire people “like them”.

You get plenty of thick rich people who go to private school and they do well because they have a better school on their cv.

My experience is different to that of Hassled. I think super bright kids will do better at private school as they will be really pushed and challenged. Average kids can fall through the cracks at private school. I’ve found some can’t sustain a level of attainment post school as that attainment was fairly artificial

There is definitely disruption in the lower sets at the private school - top two sets are fine. Very similar to the state.

Of course there is and anyone who insists there’s no disruption in private schools is living in a fantasy world. I doubt there’s chair throwing and violence but put a group of teens together in a room and you’re always going to have the odd stupid comment, the taking away friends pencils, whispering between friends and my son’s favourite, pulling away friends chairs so they fall on the floor.

Granted in a decent school it gets stopped pretty quickly but I refuse to believe that by virtue of being a private school you get a class of children who sit with 100% of concentration 100% of the time especially in year 8/9 where they’ve not chosen their GCSE’s and aren’t hugely interested in some of the subjects - things like drama and art spring to mind where it’s easier to just arse about as I call it.

I think a bright child can do just as well but it’s not as straightforward as just being bright. It depends on the school and the child. DS1 would have done fine, DS2 would have coasted at a much lower level than he did at private school and would also have been more likely to have been disruptive.

You get plenty of thick rich people who go to private school and they do well because they have a better school on their cv

Thick kids

Agree with the “cool to work hard” comparison - based purely on the secondaries I know well
Dd did have a few minor comments at Primary about being a “swot” but she’s in year 9 at Private Secondary and the very bright scholarship kids are seen as something to aspire to.
A friend of hers from the local State School ( who did very well at Primary) told DD that she wasn’t going to work hard any more as she wanted to be one of the “cool kids”not one of the “smart kids”. Dd told her that the cool kids at her school were the smart kids
I’m sure it is the case at some State Secondaries but not at the option we had.

Yes - I did and so did my dd. Our state schools weren't even particularly good.
So much education (not formal learning) happens at home.
Do you have books in the house, read copiously, talk to your children about the world and encourage and support their curiosity? Your child is much more likely to do well at whatever school they go to.

I can't help thinking that the commonly stated opinion that a bright child will do as well in any school is utter bollocks!

It is utter bollocks. All schools are different and to an extent it's the luck of the draw whether your kid goes to a school that suits them or not.

I was bright, a straight A student upon leaving primary school. But after 5 years of hell at the local comp, I failed all but one of my GCSEs. Part of it was classroom disruption, part was bullying, part was crap teachers.

One of the main problems with state education is the lack of standardisation & consistency, along with far too much "progressiveness" with initiatives introduced at massive cost and disruption only to be forgotten a year or two later.

The thing I've seen with private and selective state schools is that they tend to maintain a more traditional ethos, i.e. regular homework, regular testing, good discipline, smart uniform, competitive sports, etc., and that they don't follow the latest trends/fads so much.

Agree with the “cool to work hard” comparison - based purely on the secondaries I know well

Again this is going to depend entirely on the school. Some schools it will be true but you can’t say it of all state schools. Our school working hard and doing as well as you can is the default. It’s just not even a consideration to do anything less. The rare kids who don’t want to work are just considered annoying and pathetic and very very much in the tiny minority.

I agree that the teaching and qualifications in state schools is often superior to that in independent schools. Certainly, when I trained, there were people who couldn’t get a state school job, but could in an independent. But that was before the advent of academies, cover supervisors, unqualified staff, so who knows now.

One of the brightest lads I ever saw, went to a failing comp, but had such a zest for learning and didn’t care at all about being in with a crowd or being ‘cool’. He went to Cambridge despite the odds. Maybe, in an I independent school, he might have been able to go early. Who knows?

In general, small classes, high parental expectation, no disruption, selection, are going to make the odds stacked in favour of achievement.

May be he still would have gone to Cambridge, but also been in the choir /played cricket /done huge amounts of extension work /been in a play etc

Yes Miladymilord

I’m being blunt to make a point.

I think that being smart with a supportive family will do you well in most settings.

I think being less than academic in a family which can afford private will also do you well.

I think you’re most likely to fail academically if you’re middling/low attainers in a state system without suitably pushy and or rich parents who can buy you a better education.

How long is a piece of string? Not all state schools are created equal, and nor are all private schools come to that. State schools include everything from those serving extremely deprived populations with correspondingly high vacant teaching positions, lessons taught by supply teachers etc, to schools with incredible amounts of social capital from parents, prestige etc. And children react differently to different environments.

I do tend to agree though that the comment about children doing just as well in state tends to be less often made by those of us with some idea about the absolute worst of the state sector. Tends to say something about the quality of state school experience available to the person/DC of the person making it!

I don't think you can make sweeping generalisations either way.

It totally depends on the school, both state and private.

Me and my ds is both went to a comp and did very well, both progressing to good universities and 1st class degrees. At our school it was 'cool to do well' but we also had disruptive elements. I agree with a PO that they had mostly disappeared by A levels. I had inspiring teachers. So much so, that even 30 years after a subject that I didn't study at uni or use in everyday life - I still read books on the subject for pleasure.

My dneices (x3) all went to a private school. They are great girls and have great work ethic. They got good A-level and degree grades but not exceptional. The middle DN is at a non-RG uni studying a predominantly male heavy science subject. She loving it. However she did say to me a few months ago that having met mainly state school educated students at uni she feels like they are 'her people' and in reflection feels that she would have enjoyed the whole school experience of a good comp more than her school.

My BFriend 2 dcs and both my own dcs go to a good comp (different schools). There is a culture of "its cool to learn" in both. There are an abundance of extra curricular clubs and experiences. So far they're all doing well.

However, I chose not to send my dcs to the feeder comp as I felt there was an underlying culture amongst the pupils that learning was nerdy and uncool.

You see, all vastly different experiences.

Bright well supported children do well anywhere. Selective schools benefit massively from having a population of bright well supported children.
Private schools benefit additionally from having loads of money. Of course kids in private school are massively advantaged-both in and out of school.

Bright well supported children do well anywhere.

I disagree. There is no way DS2 would have done well “anywhere”. Put him in a school with a large number of disruptive pupils and a culture where working hard is not seen as cool and he would have seriously underperformed.

I went to a selective, well known private school from the ages of 3-11.
My parents were not able to afford private schooling post 11 however the changes, to me, were apparent.
I was bullied mercilessly for being a "geek" at secondary school. It simply wasn't "cool" to be a high achiever. I still did very well but I think the private school foundation set me up to work hard at secondary.

Choosing a school that is right for your DC/family is hard and involves compromise. There are always going to be things that aren’t perfect: for me, the presence of hugely wealthy families would be a massive disincentive at many of the schools which top league tables. I don’t want my DC to spend their formative years in a soup of the perversities of extreme neoliberalism.

Believeit do you go round calling children thick in rl?

User - what is 'a soup of the perversities of extreme neoliberalism.'?

I think there are big differences depending on whether the school puts kids in sets or not, and depending on how good the state school is.

Pupils in top sets at a good state school = probably not much difference, all in all.

Tutoring can make a difference too. Private schools may set more homework, but state school parents can also have their kids do extra work outside of school if they pay for a tutor.

Bright well supported children do well anywhere.

No they don't, Bertrand! that's the whole point of this thread. You can live in your bubble and deny it but other people don't agree based on their experiences. I was bright and well supported, but the state comp I went to absolutely ruined by education due to bullying and crap teachers. I endured 5 years of absolute hell. It was only once I'd escaped it that I could move on and effectively taught myself A levels and then did a 5 year professional qualification (equivalent to an honours degree) by self study alongside a full time job. No matter how bright you are and how well supported you are at home, if you're having to hide at breaks to avoid being beaten up and get fag burns on your arms to dare go into the toilets, not to mention having your property stolen, then being told by teachers to "toughen up" because they were too lazy to deal with the bullying, you're really aren't going to do well!

“Bright, well supported children do well anywhere.”

Of course they don’t. Many schools are mediocre places and some are scarily awful. Bright children wither and die in such environments.