11yo STILL not sleeping - at wits end, suggestions please

[Krustyandthekids]

My 11yo DS has had problems sleeping since infancy. We have tried EVERYTHING (apart from prescription medicine) - relaxation, sleeping in with his bro, calming music, reading before bed... etc etc.

He's still bad (I'd even go as far as saying he's getting worse) and I'm looking for support/sympathy/suggestions please.

He doesn't watch telly / play on his tablet past 6pm (too stimulating), he has a good and consistent bed-time routine. He doesn't have SN but has had some counselling for imaginary fears and over-active imagination in the past.

He just CANNOT get to sleep. After lights out he is back and forward to the loo 10 times, he then waits for me or DH to go to bed, and then the fear of being the last awake makes him come to our door and tell us (repeatedly) that he cannot sleep. This is ongoing and has been a problem on-and-off all of his life in one form or another.

We are at the end of our tethers (well, I am, DH is far more sympathetic). Wondered if anyone had similar experiences and had some solutions or strategies we could try...?

Audio books, they helped me a bit, although so did relaxation techniques and you’ve already tried them. Other than that I’d literally have to read until my eyes were closing otherwise I’d be awake with my brain running a million scenarios.
Looking back now I probably had some form of anxiety/depression that might (or might not) have been treatable. What is it that keeps your son awake? Can he be distracted from it or the root cause addressed/removed?

I'm a poor sleeper and have always been.
However getting out in nature makes a world a difference.
How much exercise does he get outside?
What about his diet?

Have you tried changing his bedroom space? One cure for my insomnia is to sleep upside down. Head at the bottom of my bed. Don't know why it works but it does.

I'd change the bedroom routine at this point if it isn't working. Let him stay up late, let him fall asleep on the sofa with you. I feel much 'safer' falling asleep downstairs than upstairs.

Also try falling asleep to the radio or tv rather than relaxation cds.

Basically avoiding falling asleep makes me sleep the best.

Ds was like this until recently. He's 11 now and we still have occasional nights when he can't settle but he is nothing like he used to be.

His thoughts kept him awake and it was basically anxiety. We used to make a bed up next to our bed and some nights he'd sleep there if he felt really bad. Not ideal but we knew it wouldn't last forever and it didn't.

Does he have an anxiety disorder? It sounds very extreme.
Have you been to the gp at all?
How's his behaviour otherwise?

Thanks for your suggestions - I hadn't thought of audio books Dr so that's a possibility.

I'd rather he had a healthy bedtime routine than falling asleep downstairs - he's never transferred and is a lump of a boy so wouldn't be able to get him up our stairs but hadn't thought about changing his routine, that's a good idea, thank you.

We spend a good amount of time outside playing footie / walking dogs / going on bike rides so confident he's doing enough exercise.

We haven't gone down the co-sleeping / bed by ours since he was little and I'm pretty reluctant to try that again.

I like the idea of sleeping upside down though 😄

I'm very conscious that there might be some depression link (DH suffers) and am trying so hard to reassure him but it's so very difficult when we've been through this for so long!

Have you tried those guided relaxation things on YouTube? I've seen ones aimed at children, sleep stories using ASMR etc. I find the grown up ones really effective.

Also obvious things like lots of physical outdoor activity in the day, always getting up at a set (early) time, leaving a low light on all night, leaving door open... It sounds really tough for you all though.

Nanny we have had a discussion this evening about getting support from GP - our previous experiences with child MH / sleep with the Dr. hasn't been particularly helpful in the past. Perhaps it's time to try again.

Tawdry no, haven't tried the guided relaxation thing - I'll look it up, thanks.

Plenty of fresh air here and a pretty solid light on all night, his bro sleeping in the bunk on top of him etc... he also switches all the upstairs lights on before he goes to bed (fine by us) but think there's some underlying OCD / something that's not helping.

Trying so hard not to make a big deal about it but it's becoming all-consuming at the mo! 😔

Would you consider trying melatonin? It's not a sleeping medication like sleeping pills, it's a synthetic version of the sleepy hormone we all make naturally. Some people don't make it very well and struggle to get to sleep. Melatonin is prescription only in the UK but OTC in the USA and therefore available on amazon etc.

My DD has similar issues to your son, she has been prescribed melatonin by her paediatrician (she sees one due to other mild SN) and it has really helped. We don't have to use it much now, it helped break the cycle of her being worried she wouldn't sleep.

DD was like this until v recently, she’s fourteen now! Most nights she has either the dog or the 7yo in with her now. Actually, thinking about it, that started when we bought her a double bed about a year ago. She feels more secure in a bigger bed and can have company.

Even now about once a month she’ll come in to our room at stupid o’clock to wake us up and tell us she can’t sleep. No real advice other than get a bigger bed, younger sibling and dog, but huge sympathy.

She also talks (and sings) in her sleep. Many a night I’m jolted awake to tuneless nonsense and yips.

Does he get enough bright light early on the day as well as the low light later
I’d suggest hypnosis...it won’t be cheap and if you want to see someone who specialises in children you may have to drive...but they may help with anxiety too and you could record the session and play it back at bedtime. He could also learn how to self hypnotise (basically a type of relaxation / meditation

Just seconding the audio books suggestion. My DS is 10 and finds dropping off to sleep difficult. We keep him up until 9:00, from 7:30 he is only allowed to play (Lego), read or watch ‘grown up’ tv with us. He goes to bed and we always programme the audio CD for about half an hour. I think he drifts off listening to the story, I think listening to the story allows him to relax and tune out. You have all my sympathy, it’s very hard.

Is he mentally tired as well as physically tired? If his brain is busy, it may be that he is not getting sufficient mental stimulation to exhaust his thoughts a bit. Agree with pp re audio books, something like the hobbit may tire his brain. By the end of a holiday,y sleep is dreadful because my head has been filled with nothing of note.

I have never found falling asleep easy and audio books/podcasts work for me. I can't switch my brain off so I have to distract it with something!

I find it needs to be a gentle story that you know well (no sudden noises that might wake you as you're dropping off, if you don't know the story you stay awake to listen to it!). It also needs to be on repeat with a sleep timer (for me anyway!)

I slept with the light on until I was about 25! Does a dim light help at all? I also take the pressure off myself. If I'm not falling asleep easily I just sit up and read for a bit. Sometimes you can get anxious about the fact that you haven't fallen asleep (the coming to tell you he can't sleep sounds a bit like that?)

Finally, I'd second the idea of a bed in your room if that comforts him. He's obviously in a negative cycle with sleep and it all sounds quite fraught. If he can listen to stories, read if he wants to and sleep on your floor if he wants to do you think that would take the pressure off?

have very similar issue with my child. audio books have helped a bit. she also limes this track on YouTube

Would be interested to know if any of the suggestions given work

Do you have a paediatric sleep team in a near by hospital? Your up could do a referral to them. I know there is one in Southampton. The consultant was on the tv talking about it. Southampton hospital takes referrals from most of southern england

My eldest went through a phase of not liking to sleep when he was about 8/9. We got him some CBT and that seemed to work. He wouldn’t do sleepovers though until very recently (is a teenager now), as he said he could t sleep on them. He seems ok now.

I was also going to suggest requesting a referral to a sleep clinic. I know there's one in Sheffield. Not sure how many there are around the country.

has had some counselling for imaginary fears and over-active imagination in the past.
I would go back to this. Night time is often peak time for these kind of intrusive thoughts. I would suggest further counselling and also revisiting GP as you said.

My DH was like this, and he'd toss and turn all night

My last ditch attempt was to say 'gosh you slept well last night! I couldn't sleep for all the snoring'

Total lie but he bought it and it really helped

How many hours does he usually sleep? Is he tired during the daytime?

I was also going to suggest melatonin as someone did above.

Bach Rescue Remedy do night time drops (no alcohol) which might be worth a try. Supposed to help calm down busy thoughts.

They do seem to be pretty effective on my kids in similar circumstances (and on me, come to that). I'm not normally a believer in that kind of thing, but I think they're good. Plus there's the potential placebo effect of being given a "medicine" that "will help you sleep."

They're harmless and taste nice, so you might as well...

We have a diffuser with essential oils in my daughter's room - very calming, along with relaxation music. Although she is much younger than your son.
Agree audio books sounds like a good possible solution.
Good luck OP x

We were referred to a sleep specialist for dd1 when she was 10 and not asleep before midnight.

He said to cut out screen for an hour before heading to bed (which you're already doing) and then do nothing in bed but sleep (no listening to music, reading etc). The idea was to reinforce the idea that bed was for sleeping only. It has worked for her (she used to switch on her light and read). We are in the USA where melatonin is available over the counter but he said not to take it as no studies on the long term use in children had been carried out. Maybe a referral is the way forward?

My dd was like this , we never had a full nights sleep and the only way we got any decent amount of sleep was to co sleep for all of part of the night either in her bed or ours . Fortunately both are king size so fine for dh to move to . She improved at about 13/14 although she still has trouble getting to sleep and is generally still wandering in and out of the loo at gone 1 every night and she is 19 now . Luckily for me I rarely go to sleep before 1or 2 and am fine on 5/6 hours would be a nightmare if you are someone who needs lots of sleep .