Friends Demon Child

[CanWeJust]

Id like to ask you all wwud to get across my friend bluntly she is raising a Demon child and she needs to do something about it!!! Sorry if it's so long!Please stick with me.

He's 10 and he's best friends with my DS - though both are in different schools so mostly see each other weekends / occasionally after school for a bit. There has never been an issue between them until recently (they have been friends since they were both 6 months old when me and his mum met) and since then they've been inseparable really due to me and my friend being so close.

Recently (since around February) her sons attitude seems to have been getting worse and worse. Hes always been 'cheeky' but its stepped up a notch to where he talks back - and I don't mean a bit of regular childish tantrums I mean he speaks to my DF like he's son stroppy 16 year old language wise. He gives me attitude if/when I babysit and literally shows no respect to anyone recently, though is incredibly polite and well mannered in school.

In fact, to others he's an absolute angel.

If my friends there and he begins talking to me like shit I'll tell him straight not to speak to me like that and he gets really shocked and confused - then upset. But I'm fighting a losing battle because she will then cheer him up by getting him a treat so I feel like she's undermining my own authority with him. It's come to the point now when I try tell him off for speaking like that to me he just smirks and goes "what are you going to do? That's right nothing." With absolute confidence.

With this building months in the making me and my DF a few weeks ago had a huge row, because when he says things like this to me and I tell her she just laughs saying things like "isn't he so cheeky?" "Did he really say that? He's going to be a right character when he's older isn't he?" She's genuinely proud.

She seems to see his attitude as funny as when he gives her it she always laughs /smiles. She even brags about it to others and they laugh with her because how she phrases it - without his nasty conviction - so it does seem quite funny to think of her seemingly well behaved little Angel coming out with such things.

I told her I wouldn't tolerate his attitude to me anymore and she promised to start clamping down on it and she has made some efforts - but his punishments are superficial. She will sternly tell him it's wrong then in the next breath offer him more treats promise him a toy etc. I'll admit he's calmed somewhat with his attitude towards me but I don't think it's acceptable still. A child his age shouldn't speak to anyone like he does.

He has begun to hit my DF as well, punching her in the face or kicking her as hard as he could. He first time I witnessed it I was absolutely shocked, more so because she just laughed and acted like it was no big deal when he then screamed at her and stormed upstairs.

The second time I piped up and told him he shouldn't hit her, to which he turned to me in mild confusion and apologised. Since then he's never done it in front of me but still hits her because she often phones me because he's wholloped her and she wants someone to speak to whilst he finishes raging in his room.

But she always has an excuse. He's had a hard day, he's hungry, he's tired etc etc. I've spent hours telling her she needs to nip it in the bud but she won't punish him. She never has and she tells me that he's just going through a phase. It will pass.

Then there's the things he says when he's giving attitude. He threatens to kill himself. Kill her. Kill their pet dog. Kill his Grandad. Hes fascinated with death and often openly speaks about when me and DF will die, Google about murder and likes to write stories about the world ending. Maybe just a phase this fascination but it worries me... I don't feel comfortable listening to a 10 year old chatter so happily about how he can't wait until we all die and can leave him to do what he likes.

When she does punish him for doing something really horrific he purposely hurts himself by slapping his face several times until she relents and tries to appease him. As I've mentioned when he gets away with things he gives this smirky looks and it's beginning to really rub me the wrong way.

Two weekends ago I was babysitting and he and DS were sat watching TV when my DS called their dog to come to him. Her son sighed loudly and snapped "just because your mum's too poor to buy you a dog doesn't mean you can call mine like you own him." I was in the hall but overheard so told him not to say things like that. He scoffed and stormed upstairs.

I decided to have a chat with him and asked if there was a reason he acted like he did and said nasty things. He just shrugged and said it was "because he could." I told him he was acting like a bully to me and his mum and that his comment to my DS was unkind. He looked me dead in the eye and said "then maybe you shouldn't be so mean and buy him nice toys, like mine."

I was completely baffled. As I've mentioned my friends spoils him rotten (games and consoles when it's not even his birthday/christmas) - he breaks something during his paddys and he gets a replacement immediately. My DS is by no means hard done by but I certainly don't lavish him. But explaining this to a child of 10 with an attitude problem was next to impossible.

Later that night I asked my son if he's ever said anything like that before (through my chat with DF's son it became apparent he considers me 'poor') and my son admitted when they were alone playing he often said nasty things, but my DS knew there was no point telling my DF because the one time he did she just laughed it off.

I brought it up with her and she just gave me a huge speel about how her DS was in a bad mood that night, how when my DS came to her it was a typical child's argument and my DS is blowing things out of proportion, that what her son said was obviously him making things up in his moodiness.

I told my DS if he says nasty things again to tell me immediately.

Last Tuesday I was tucking in DS when he said he had something to tell me and made me promise I wouldn't get mad. He confided that her DS liked to squeeze him - his arms, legs etc when he says nasty things and that it had happened that day when they were playing. He said her DS snapped because my DS wasn't playing Lego 'right' and he grabbed him, squeezed and told him he was "stupid and no wonder your mum doesn't love you." And something in regards to us being poor again.

There was no bruises but my DS said hes sometimes a bit red after, but that friends DS always checks him over and declares 'that didn't hurt, did it?' And will start a game again like nothing happened.

I asked why he'd never told me before about it and he said DF's son had warned him that if he told nothing would happen because his mum let's him do what he likes. And I realised how believable it would be to my DS because she reallydoesand DS has witnessed my DF's child get away with horrendous behaviour without consequence.

I feel guilty that my DS has been subjected to this and have been avoiding her because I know I'm frustrated over the whole situation and would just snap, saying something I'd regret. I know it's my fault for allowing DS to witness this and for not removing him from it sooner, she is my closest DF and when there's not issues with her DS we are really close and have so much in common.

I'm at a loss as what to do here because I'm clearly giving advise to death ears, but at the same time I'm watching her raise an absolute demon and I want no part of it for my DS and myself. Other friends have told me I need to say something, since me and her are so close. I've calmed down a lot now and I know I need to say something... I just don't know what. I feel like I've said everything before and she doesn't listen, but I can't let my DS remain in that situation.

So... Tips on how to tell DF she's raising a demon child and that I don't want my DS around hers until she does something about it please??

((So may be relevant to know; she's a single mum and her DS has never met his dad so no male authority. He's been tested for ADHD and Autism and though he may have very 'mild' autism it's not enough to need special classes / meetings etc because he functions perfectly fine in school / outside at his clubs / fine with his school friends and is well thought of as a lovely little boy. His horrific behaviour is reserved mostly with her. When he gives attitude to me is generally after a strop over something as mild as she'd forgot to buy X treat or he wants X toy and he's lashing out. His behaviour towards my son however... I'm not sure where that stems from!!!))

Cut them off!
Nothing u can do she will know later in life what a mistake she has made.
Noway would I want to put my kid through being around a little shit like that just so I have a mate never!

The squeezing concerns me. What happens if he squeezes him round the neck next time

This is not a healthy friendship for your DS. I know you say he asks to see him but you also need to parent your child and make the decision for him as to whether they should continue having unsupervised contact. If you decide that the friendship does continue and your son gets injured again - physically or mentally - then you have to accept thay was due to your decision.

You can't change your friend's parenting but you can change how much you expose yourself and son to it.

He's not a demon, he sounds extremely disturbed and in huge need of boundaries and consequence. He even makes reference to his mum "allowing him to do what he likes"
My best friend had a child, she rarely disciplined him and he was pretty much allowed to do as he wished.
When he began to bully my little girl I cut the friendship off all together.
He's 18 now and has just finished his second period of young offenders.

OP- I could have written your post!! I’m in an almost identical situation at the moment. DS’s best friend is once again treating him badly, being unbelievably rude to me and my DH, blanking me when I tried to discipline him whilst at our house, physically hurt my DS last week, and is getting away with everything due to (in my opinion) shockingly poor parenting/over-indulgence from his DM who is insistent on him being a misunderstood darling infant and attributing absolutely everything to the fact she suspects he has ASD (although hasn’t done anything to effect any testing in the whole 3 years our DS’s have been friends).

Even if ASD/ADHD etc are underlying factors, the issue is horribly muddied by the concurrent lack of any effective parenting strategies or teaching of morals or basic manners, so her DS is entirely unsocialised and the net effect is that he’s a horrid, insolent, manipulative little horror.

It seems a lot of your unhappiness stems from the mothers failures to discipline appropriately, the child knows that any complaints are easily resolved to his satisfaction without consequence. Your friendship with lots of issues and no consequences enables the family to continue unchallenged and it is only going to get worse. You need to stop enabling the behavior, put yourself and your child first and at best cut the friendship adrift, at worst reduce contact and stop babysitting completely.

I was all ready to suggest that maybe he's hitting puberty; lots of children turn into Kevin the teenager at 10.

But hitting his mum? And the weird squeezing? Quite aside from the cruel things he says, those behaviours are just plain sinister. Your friend and her son need serious help. Tell her as much, and be prepared, sadly, to lose your friend for a while.

I’ve decided as a result that our DS’s should have a break from one another. They still see eachother at school (in same class) but there certainly won’t be any more play-dates etc and I’ve told my friend that I won’t be engaging in our lift-sharing arrangements any more as the boys need a break from eachother and I don’t feel comfortable having her DS any more. I’ve spoken to School to ask that they’re not paired-up together any more (my DS has always been lumped together with this other boy to act almost as his ‘carer’ or ‘good influence’ as my DS has good social skills and likes to help people who are sad or struggling). I’m really cross about this now because on reflection I can see that my DS has been expected to put up with an emotional roller-coaster and poor treatment due to the fact it’s convenient for the teachers and my friend for this boy to have someone to mitigate for his difficulties/behaviour, and my DS was a convenient candidate.

My DS wouldn’t see it this way (it’s his “best friend’) but Ive recently realised it’s my job as his adult to identify abusive/unhealthy dynamics and put a stop to them, as he lacks the life experience/understanding to see this for himself. It was v scary and stressful being assertive but I feel a million times better as a result! Good luck OP and PM me if you want!

I don't think that you can put your DS in that situation any more. He needs to develop healthier friendships elsewhere.

I think ASD/PDA/ADD might be an issue here. One thing I have learned is that "mild" autism isn't really a thing. There's being functional/able to mask symptoms and remember behaviour rules, and those on the spectrum who have these abilities might be actually just as affected or even more so than others whose symptoms are more manifestly obvious because they don't mask so much.

It fits in with being an angel child at school too - if school have been very clear and consistent about explaining all the rules and the consequences of not following them, then that is a blessed relief to someone with high-functioning autism.

The complete lack of rules at home are hurting this child. But it's not up to you to make parenting decisions for him. The only thing that you can do is protect your own child. If cutting all contact is too drastic then the two DC should not be left playing unsupervised even for a minute. Warn the child and his mum that you've been thinking about the various incidents that you mentioned in your op and that from now on, if there is any physical violence or verbal meanness then you and your DC will be leaving immediately. Then it is vitally important that you follow through - pay attention and do get up and leave the moment something like that happens. If you don't set and enforce a definition for reasonable behaviour then no one else is going to and anything that you accept will be defined as acceptable. But the only thing that you can control is whether or not you and your DC spend time with them - everything else is up to your friend.

You definitely need to protect your son from this very disturbed child. If she's allowing your son to be bullied by her own child I'd question how good of a friend she really is.

Stop the babysitting, tell her you won't meet her with her son present and tell her exactly why. For the sake of her child, she needs to be confronted with this and break her denial. It's the best thing you could ever do for her.

What the hell do you mean you don’t know what to do?

Show your son you won’t tolerate him or you being bullied!

You don’t allow the child to play with yours anymore and you stop seeing your “friend.”

Or is your friendship and her feelings more important than your son?

You are cross with the school, your friend and her son. Take some responsibility yourself as well. You have allowed this situation to develop and tolerated it too long to the detriment of your child.

She is going to have massive problems with him in the coming years. And it's her own fault. You've tried to help. She can't see how horrible he is. Do your poor child a favour and don't see either of them any more. If she asks why, tell her the truth.

There is no need to feel any guilt for leaving her too it as she’s choosing to raise him in this way.

Your priority obviously has to be your own child and being belittled, physically hurt and chipped away like this is not the best thing for your child.

You and your son will get past the loss of having your friends in your life. The relationships aren’t what they used to be anyway.

Start a new chapter, you and your son.

You need to keep your son away from this boy and encourage him to develop other friendships. The fact that he wants to continue to see your friend's son despite the way he is treated shows that he already has a pretty warped view of how friendships should work. Don't let that be his view of 'normal', it would be setting him up for a life of misery.

Keep seeing your friend if you must, but keep your son out of it.

If you and the Mum weren't such great friends, would you allow a friend of your son's to bully him like this? Do you want your DS to know that he can tell you anything that's troubling him and you'll deal with it?
You have to end the boys' friendship. And for your friend and her DS's sake, you need to tell her why. If your factual about it, and offer support if she wants it, then it's possible your friendship can continue.
Tell her he says nasty things, he insults you, he is physically aggressive to your DS, he threatens your DS. Explain that you're sure she'd break the friendship too if the shoe were on the other foot.
Show your DS that you'll do whatever necessary to protect him from a bully.

Also, you must not allow your son to think that you think it's ok for him to be treated like this. Or you are opening yourself up to a heap of trouble. Children need to know their parents are there for him. And that if they tell them something is happening like this, they will step in and deal with it. Not fanny around worrying about the other person.

OP, in your place I'd have to distance myself and only see my friend when the children aren't there.

How did she react when you told her? DId she understand or was she floating along in denial?

I dont agree with calling other children demons or otherwise however, you need to put clearer boundaries in place.

DS had a 'friend' like this who seems to thrive off causing shit. I'm good friends with the Mum and I've just taken to making excuses when ever 'Tom' wants to come over and torment the DCs play but we still meet for coffee regularly.

OP with these parents and children you'll never 'get through to them' and you'll be constantly flogging a dead horse. For example DSs friend did and said some pretty horrible things to DCs online which, lied about it when he tried to get the DCs into trouble, (they'd been told they can't go on a certain website and they had - they were messages from the child telling the DCs to ignore me and do it anyway) looked genuinely shocked that I didnt 'lose my shit' at the DCs and the only reason I found out was because when checking the DCs tablets I saw the messages to them. It was laughed off.
Same child declared angrily that DS 'gets away with everything' when he accidentally got hurt by DS They were playing football. .
These parents will never see the other side of the argument that child B might just not be as angelic as they think. You'll just be wasting your energy and get frustrated every time it happens. If your friend wont set boundaries set them yourself.
This can be anything from making sure you keep pulling up the child when he misbehaves, but that is just likely to lead to the child telling his mum you're being mean to him. A more diplomatic boundary is to do / say "actually DS can't meet up this Tue as DS has something on but I can meet you on Friday for a coffee if you'd like?" She'll either accept it and be grateful of the child free time or she'll take offence and the friendship will gradually dwindle away.

Why must ASD be an isssue/explanation? Whilst I agree it may be a possibility it may be that the kid is just plain naughty.

DS has ASD. DSs friend had no SNs.
I've seen the friend speak to his mum like she was shit off his shoe and she's gone "oh I'm ignoring him he's just tired". I'm not usually one to say this but sometimes, just sometimes it is just a case of ineffective parenting.

I think you need to have a talk with your son about friendship and acceptable behaviour. Friends don’t deliberately hurt each other, so this boy isn’t his friend. You are in charge of your house and you don’t allow people into your house if they don’t follow the rules. And if they are unkind then you can and will choose to avoid going to their homes.

Perhaps if your son still wants to see the other boy, then you can meet up in a public place where he can’t be abused. McDonalds, bowling, etc. But tell the other child clearly that your family doesn’t tolerate violence or unkindness and inappropriate behaviour will result in you and your son leaving the activity.

You may not be able to tell your friend how to parent her son, but you are in charge of your family’s interactions. Keep your message clear and simple.

Stop making it your problem. Keep you and your son away from her and her son. You have other friends, so does your DS, so socialise with them instead.
You and (especially) your DS will be much happier without these people in your lives.

You need to separate your friendship with her from the dysfunctional relationship between the boys and yours with her son.

Focus on encouraging your son's friendships with other kids - start a class or hobby with him at the weekend or after school.

Meet up with your friend alone for meals, drinks, speak on the phone, whatever. Just without the kids. If she asks what's going on, tell her. If she asks for advice, signpost her to other support - parenting classes, SEN groups...

You shouldn't have to be trying to tell off or discipline her child when she is there - the fact you feel you have to shows she is not parenting effetively (for whatever reason).

Don't babysit him again with your ds there. I would be reluctant to babysit him alone too - he is violent to her and doesn't respect you.

IMO, there is no such thing as "mild autism"! Boys with ASD can get violent with their mothers in particular, as they get to their teens; regardless of parenting techniques! It could be that he will end up in jail, as an adult!

An interest in the macabre can be just that! DD1 who has SEN, spent all her time at primary school fascinated by graveyards and death! Her favourite pastime was looking round graveyards; and she always drew them, skeletons, coffins, etc in her art! She spent a whole year obsessing on the Crucifixion, after doing about Easter at school, However, it was just an interest; she was always happy, warm and kind herself - to everybody and all animals! Physically would not hurt a fly! However, she had have a bf, in her special class, who pinched, squeezed and kicked DD1 and my other children on the sly! In the end, DD1 chose herself not to be friends with her anymore, as she commented "BF is not nice to her sisters!"

All you can do is protect DS; and keep him away!