Should I swerve this baby group?

[Februaryrat]

I've been looking for a good music baby group for ages, for my 15 month old.

I was recommended one not too far away, held in a church. For context, I'm a vocal atheist, but have no problem with going to religious buildings - as far as I'm concerned, the more they're used for baby groups and community work, the better!

The baby group was fantastic - it was super, super cheap, there were cakes and baby snacks available, hot drinks for the parents, and when the group started, it was really well run - instruments, props - everything you would want from a music group.

Except when the bubble machine came out, so did the song about being Jesus' best friend. This was unexpected. I looked around the room trying to find a friendly, similarly horrified face, but everyone I saw was smiling beatifically and singing along.

This is not an attack on religion. I am aware I was in a church, and if they're not allowed to have a sing about Jesus there, then where are they?! If anyone is hypocritical, it is me!

BUT - I am in two minds about whether to go back to the group. I cannot and will not join in with the Jesus songs (or the line about the mummies on the bus go chatter-chatter-chatter, but that's a separate issue), but I did like everything else about the group. I am not quite unhinged enough to think my toddler is going to be indoctrinated, but something doesn't quite sit right. Maybe taking advantage of something offered under false pretences? I can't put my finger on it.

Anyone have any thoughts?

i get you. if it makes you feel uncomfortable i'd go somewhere else. it probably is subsidised by the church, and since you're an atheist you might feel hypocritical. however i suspect they would welcome you whatever your religion.

Why don't you ring up the vicar and talk to him (or her, obviously) about it? I'm sure he'll say there's no problem whatsoever, but talking to him would put your mind at ease.

I tend to think that if I don't have any belief in something then why would it annoy me? It's just a song, you don't have to place any meaning to it at all. Your baby won't understand the concept and you don't have to alienate yourself from people because they might believe and you don't, Christians and atheists are both nice people at the end of the day.

I went to a C of E school and sang all the hymns and went to all the church services and I have never believed in God. If you feel that strongly then don't go to an event in a church. If you're worried about the subsidy then maybe put a bit extra in their donations pot!

I really really think you need to lighten up. It's a song, so what? Kids sing songs about all sorts of rubbish and it does them no harm if they enjoy the music. It's not advertised as a 'religeous' group by the sounds of it, so they will be expecting a mixed bag of attendees and if it makes you uncomfortable to join in with the singing then just don't.

My MIL looks after DS on a MOnday while I am at work and often takes him to Mass with her. I don't like it but I can't dictate what she does with him when she is providing childcare, so I suck it up - it's only an hour a week. Apparently he loves the hymns and stuff and really, it's not doing him any harm. When he's old enough i will just make sure I spend time telling him about how I (and others) view the world in a different way and hope he grows up to make his own choices about religeon.

I dont' think a bit of jesus singing will do your LO any harm. If its held in a church it will be funded and organised by the church and as you and LO were happy with it (minus the jesus singing) I'd just carry on going. Your LO wont have a clue what they are singing about anyway.

I would also would feel uncomfortable attending a religious baby group when I'm not religious - it feels hypocritical! As church halls can be hired out, it's reasonable to assume that baby group in church hall does not = religious group.

It's not the same as singing songs about Santa, as a PP suggested, because no one thinks that Santa is a real person, but people do believe that God and Jesus are real.

And I agree with you about the mummies on the bus going 'chatter chatter chatter' as well

Life is full of things that annoy you, make you feel uncomfortable, make you feel a hypocrite etc...

This is just one of those things...you wont be the only atheist there, it really is only a minor blip in an otherwise enjoyable time for your little one, I used to just let it wash over me.

February I understand where you're coming from OP - I think most people just choose not to think too deeply and sing along (literally and metaphorically). Its not always the right policy, but in the case of a baby group with two religious songs and no specific entry criteria (i.e. not specifically for members of the congregation) I think it is exactly the right policy.

I went through years of religious schooling refusing to sing along once I reached an age to think for myself and realise that I didn't believe a word of what I'd been fed since I was old enough to talk - I can't sing anyway, so nobody really missed out on my lilting tones :o Though I was once confronted by an over zealous house mistress in a hissing whisper I doubt that would happen to an adult at baby group - most people on both "sides" of the religious perspective tend to prefer not to rock the boat...

Meh, I'm an atheist and one of the ones I go to has an actual bible story in it (that the kids always play up during).

But they have biscuits and good coffee and nice toys so I go and probably do smile beatifically because I'm having a great time and God stuff makes me laugh.

Second what Crunchyside says, as another committed atheist. I grew up with v pushy catholic grandma, went to c of e school and was surrounded by devout methodists in my neighborhood; I read bible stories, sang hymns and even tried out sunday school a few times for the fun of it (there wasn't a lot to do in the village where i grew up!) without ever developing a shred of belief. If it's a good group then who cares, as long as they're not trying to convert you. I think most churches tend to be pretty welcoming even of non-believers, for many that's also kind of the point! It sounds like great fun for your bubs and i'm sure s/he is way more interested in the bubble machine than the lyrics about jesus.

When Ds was little we went to a play session in a church hall, it was going fine until they sang a song about thanking god for the rain (the theme was weather that week) and changing the lyrics to wheels on the bus to something religious. I am an atheist, I never went back!

I don't even like him having noah ark toys!

Personally I wouldn't go OP, not just because I'm an atheist but because I have a huge problem with the evil done in the name of church. I just couldn't bring myself to go.

To be fair to the OP, a lot of church halls are hired out by random local groups for various things. In my village there's yoga/zumba/line dancing in the church owned village hall. So I can see why you thought it might have just been a non-faith baby group.

I'd swerve it i'm afraid. I'm a complete athiest and even feel uncomfortable going along with a lot of things even at Christmas.

I think I understand. On what is , I think, a separate point, will you find many kindred spirits there?

I think I would continue attending, but continue, in parallel, with finding a group that suits you better.

@FinallyHere - that's a really good point. I did feel like I was the only one in the room believing like I did. Whilst I'm beyond the point of desperately trying to make friends with anyone with a kid roughly the same age, it's still a bit uncomfortable if you know you're not in a room full of like-minded spirits. I think your advice is spot-on; keep going for now, look out for something more suitable.

@NaiceBiscuits - thank you. Your group sounds very welcoming and the attempted coup hilarious. I might leave it a couple more weeks before proposing I take over with my atheist agenda!

NaiceBiscuits that sounds a familiar story. Similar thing happened at a group my friends used to go to.

This particular group was linked to a church which has an attached Outstanding Primary School. People got it in their heads that attending the baby group was the first step to getting into the school, but clearly didn't like the idea of the religious aspect.

This lack of attention to detail does not flatter you.

What a huge overreaction to my comment. Really rude too. I wasn't looking to be flattered, just posting as you didn't have many replies. I didn't pay it a deep level of attention as it wasn't a particularly sensitive op. Don't post if you can't cope with a broad range of replies.

Aww op I can really relate to your feelings. Don't go back, just check out rhyme time, toddler dance classes, YouTube and children's centre music sessions if you feel your toddler needs more music in her life. X

*llhj nobody's going to much appreciate a post that starts "oh jeez lighten up" and continues as a general dressing down sneering at perceived inexperience though are they?

Several other posters used exactly the same phrase.

I'm a massive atheist and I have a church playgroup for every day of the week (and two for Tuesdays). I help out at two of them.

It's been really eye opening for me as I've met so many people for whom faith is a reason to get out there and do really practical things for the most vulnerable people. The salvation army in particular do amazing work with homeless people. I feel truly humbled by their selflessness.

I am not going to be finding faith anytime soon. And I do still take the piss out of the evangelicals (but they have the best cake). But it's good to meet people who are different to you.

And no-one thinks you're a christian just because you're at a baby group. Around here even if you go to church every week the vicar just assumes you need a school place...

llhj a couple of others did, but among slightly more empathetic or informative comments, not just the old "just you wait til you're as experienced as me - you'll never handle what's coming if you're worrying over this" type sneer that some parents like to hand out to anyone they think is making a fuss in the early stages of parenting. Doubly annoying when the target is actually an experienced parent doing the baby stage for the second / third or more time and just being analytical/ thoughtful / pondering about the minor dilemmas thrown up this time around.