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Child benefit changes - what do you think?

999 replies

KateMumsnet · 25/10/2012 13:50

Next week, the Inland Revenue will write to 1.2m families about upcoming changes to child benefit eligibility. The changes mean that from next January, single-income families earning more than £50,000 per year will no longer be eligible for the full amount (currently worth £1,055 for the first child) - and those earning over £60K will no longer receive it at all.

The changes are controversial. Dual-income families who both earn just below the 50K cut-off - who have, in other words, a family-income of just under £100K per year - will continue to receive the full amount, leading to criticism that the changes penalise both stay-at-home mothers and single parents. Accountants are warning that new partners of divorced parents could also lose out. And the entire process is so complicated - with families forced to fill out complex self-assessment forms for the first time - that the Inland Revenue has reportedly postponed sending out the letters because they can't find a form of words that families will be able to understand.

What do you think? Will you be affected by the changes, and what will it mean for your family? Are stay-at-home mothers being unfairly targeted - or is staying at home a luxury which shouldn't be subsidised by the taxpayer? Should child benefit be universal - or should it be available only to families who are really struggling? Let us know what you think here on the thread, and don't forget to post your URLs if you blog on this subject - we'll be tweeting them over the next few days.

OP posts:
shinyblackgrape · 25/10/2012 22:44

panda - so that's net income?

What about council tax? Is that subsidised? I would presume you also got am exemption for prescription and dental costs?

I don't want to sound as though I'm cross examining you but all of that needs to be added in to

PandaSpaniel · 25/10/2012 22:48

Yes, sorry council tax of around £100 a month and yes free school dinners and the likes. It is enough to live off comfortably enough if careful with money but not enough for luxuries such as holidays, which is quite right in my opinion as like I said earlier, benefits are there for support in times of need and not to be relied on which is what far too many do!

Mum2Luke · 25/10/2012 22:49

I totally agree Duchesse, my dh works long hours to earn his 50K (before outgoings), we have only one child on cb as the two older ones are working. I work part-time for 5-10 hours a week as a casual catering assistant in local school kitchens covering when people are off sick/looking after sick children which pays for my clothes and diesel for the family car.

Everything comes out of his wage including pensions contributions and healthcare, we hardly ever go out very much together, don't smoke and don't buy extravagant clothes.

I have always worked even when at home with all 3 of mine, as a Childminder and Care Assistant working for a Nursing Agency but am not able to do this due to arthritis in my leg.

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PandaSpaniel · 25/10/2012 22:51

What does everyone think the cap on child benefit should be then if any?

WearingGreen · 25/10/2012 22:55

"Peppa - if the man on 100k is the one claiming CB then he will lose it, if his estranged spouse on 40k does then she won't. But yes she will if she then moves in with 60k boyfriend."

and if boyfriend has dcs with 49K earning ex, she can claim for them, so a separated couple earning millions can still claim just so long as the one claiming is under the threshold.

Bizarre

duchesse · 25/10/2012 22:56

I don't think there should be a cap on it. As others have said, it was conceived of as a universal benefit that everyone in this country under 40 has benefited from even if they don't have children of their own. It gives a bit of independence to the mothers, who are most often the ones at home with the children and who even if they are in an apparently high-income family may be in difficult circumstances with their partner exerting financial control. Universal benefits are much easier and cheaper to administer. For what CB cost in payments to people who didn't really need it it wasn't worth turning means-tested.

It looks good as a sound-bite and I'm sure it pleased the right of the Tory party but I seriously hope it will rear and bite Gideon in the bum big time. Although I'm sure he'll find some poor junior civil servant to take the rap

shinyblackgrape · 25/10/2012 22:57

Panda - I don't think there should be any cap for those who are working. I think it should be provided for all as a tax allowance.

However, I do think that for those on benefits, it should form part of the overall benefits cap.

notenoughsocks · 25/10/2012 22:57

Lily Sorry to be a pendant, but Child Benefits were actually formed out of a combination of tax allowances and child benefits.

Child tax allowances were granted for each and every child in recognition of the fact that ?if you were supporting children, your salary had to stretch further.? However, they tax allowances tend to benefit the better off (i.e. those who earned over and above the tax thresholds). Because of the way the tax system used to work, child tax allowances were normally paid to fathers (i.e. on the breadwinner?s paypacket). On the other hand, family allowances were a universal benefit paid directly to mothers. Everybody received the same amount, however much they earned. Family allowances were only paid for second and subsequent children.

In the early 1970s, the then Conservative Government designed a shiny new ?Tax-Credit scheme?. Under this scheme, tax allowances and family allowances would be merged into a new ?Child Tax Credit?. This would be paid, usually, on the father?s wage packet. However ? and I find this part of the story inspiring - women and women?s organisations kicked up such a stink that the Government ended up having to promise that mothers would not lose their right to collect the family allowance, or its new equivalent. This was very much a women?s rights issue. It was also a children?s welfare issue. The CPAG pointed out that benefits paid via women were more likely to end up being spent on children. The Tax-Credit Scheme as a whole was never implemented (too many problems with it). By then though, the proposed Child Tax Credit had become detached from the Tax-Credit scheme. Partly because of the reactions from women, and the poverty lobby, it morphed into Child Benefit. This was ? and is still today - a universal, tax-free credit paid on account of each and every child, paid, paid usually to the mother.

Sorry to go on, but since I am here I will try and answer the earlier question about why all families should get it ? even those greedy rich ones who spend it all on fripperies. As Lily said, and imho I agree, family allowances, tax credits and child benefits emodied the notion that society was and should be, to some degree, collectively responsible for the welfare of its children, that is for the next generation who, as Lily said will hopefully contribute to GDP as they start to work. In the eyes of some, child benefits were an important advance for women also. They made a token gesture towards recognising the work the (usually it was the) mother did, and the career opportunities she would probably have sacrificed to raise those children. Child ?Benefit? is not currently a benefit in the way that we normally now think of benefits. It was universal. Universal benefits are held to be important for three reasons that I can think of. Firstly, as Xenia said, universal benefits confer a stake in society. Second, once any benefit becomes selective or means-tested, it can be whittled away; recipients can, over time, be cast as un-deserving or scroungers. Thirdly, universal benefits for children can be seen as a way of maintaining the work incentives that are damaged by means-tested systems. (ooo, and a fourth, they are simple and everybody that is entitled to them normally claims them and does not feel bad for doing so).

Sorry to go on. If I have x-posted, I apologise. The whole issue has made me very cross [hangry] and this is - honest - my last post on the matter tonight.

Boggler · 25/10/2012 22:57

Hey panda to get your £16k in benefits (inc council tax) per year I'd have to earn somewhere in the region of £24k before tax and NI etc. Tbh £16k for doing sod all doesn't sound too bad.

shinyblackgrape · 25/10/2012 22:59

Cross posts with duchesse and agree with the points re Gideon who has a face I would never tire of slapping

WearingGreen · 25/10/2012 22:59

I don't think there should be a cap because it fucks with the idea of independent taxation, it bases a benefit for children on who the resident parent is sleeping with and its pointlessly complex.

duchesse · 25/10/2012 23:00

That's rather uncalled for Boggler.

PandaSpaniel · 25/10/2012 23:01

boggler, I totally agree, its shitty. I don't think people should be allowed to sit on their arses and claim 16k forever! My own personal story is one of poor mental health and splitting up from my partner. I wont bore you with the details but will just say I am working hard at college in order to get a 24k + job then I will not have to rely on any* benefits.

Headinbook · 25/10/2012 23:04

Apologies for jumping straight into this discussion, but the link to it on Twitter brought me here in the first place.

I think that this is probably just the first of the universal benefits to be means tested. Regardless of whether those (of us) affected can afford to lose the money, I think it's really important to make a noise about a government implementing something which is arbitrary, unfair and almost unworkable.

If I were a cynic, I would suspect that the target group was well chosen -so little likely to attract sympathy that the precedent is easily & irreversibly set for dismantling other universal benefits.

I blogged about this a while ago, and the gist of my argument is to wonder if it can still legitimately be called "Child Benefit" at all.

headinbooks.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/whose-benefit/

PandaSpaniel · 25/10/2012 23:07

shiny I don't agree with that. If it doesn't have a cap then it doesn't have a cap. Can't just say oh well it doesn't have a cap but you are on a benefit so you deserve to have it capped.

All sorts of people end up on benefits, not just the few lazy bums that give everyone a bad name.

shinyblackgrape · 25/10/2012 23:07

panda - hope this doesn't sound patronising but a genuine well done. Hope all going well at college

PandaSpaniel · 25/10/2012 23:09

headinbook

Yes, call me cynical but they are not trying to means test the winter payments that pensioners get. Wouldn't have anything at all to do with the fact that older people are much more likely to vote? [hhmm]

ihategeorgeosborne · 25/10/2012 23:09

The first full years claw back of this will be in January 2015. That's 4 months before the general election. I will be interested to hear their smarmy patter to try and win round all these angry mothers (will probably make me puke though). They've lost my vote for sure. They are completely clueless.

PandaSpaniel · 25/10/2012 23:10

shiny Thanks

shinyblackgrape · 25/10/2012 23:12

Well we have to agree to disagree. I do think that benefits need capped as an incentive to go back to work.

I don't believe that having unlimited children is a right. It's a privilege. Most people who work don't have more children than they can reasonably afford as there are other inherent costs such as child are that the extra child benefit won't mitigate. Further, the child benefit they receive is more than outweighedvbybthe tax contribution they make b

Unfortunately, i think there is a section of society who receive benefits who don't factor in the affordability as they don't need to. Pretty much all costs are subsidised and the child benefit is a nice little top up which they aren't subsidising at all due to any tax contribution.

TheCrackFox · 25/10/2012 23:13

I would imagine that in less than 10rs time Child Benefit will cease to excist as every year the threshold for earnings will be reduced by a couple of grand.

Headinbook · 25/10/2012 23:14

Panda No, absolutely nothing at all to do with that. Ahem.

shinyblackgrape · 25/10/2012 23:15

panda - y.y. Re the pensioners voting

ihategeorgeosborne · 25/10/2012 23:17

I'm sure it will get swallowed up by universal credit in the next few years. That's definitely where they're going with this. This higher rate tax payer bodge is just a ploy so they can say "look, we've taken child benefit away from the wealthy", despite the fact that they're still giving it to families on up to £100k, but hey, who am I to be pedantic. They seem to believe their own lies and seem to be doing a good job of getting others to believe them too.

HipHopOpotomus · 25/10/2012 23:17

Regardless of how it affects me/us It is ill thought out, grossly unfair and plain stupid. Sad Angry A fine piece of Conservative work. No doubt hugely costly to manage to.

Let the riots begin.