I’m a Seventh-Day Adventist (Christian) - AMA!

[SDAchurchAMA]

Have you heard of the SDA church before, or are you unaware of its existence? Do you have any questions about what we believe in, or anything random you want to ask me?

Long-term Mumsnetter - posting this on a new account. I’m a woman in my late 20s looking for a few breaks from cleaning my house this afternoon as I get ready for some guests tomorrow. Ask away!

@MissConductUS thank you for your lovely words. I had kind of a free afternoon and thought it would be lovely to see how Mumsnet would react to this topic - I’ve been pleasantly surprised to see such thoughtful debates and comments, many of which have made me think a lot and reinforce my beliefs through checking carefully what I base them on.

@Ipsevenenabibas has also been very thought-provoking and it’s not often you can have these healthy back and forth arguments on an online forum, so thank you. I dread to think how Reddit would react to this same post 😂

I’ll try and answer all your points, hope I don’t forget too many. Your questions have made me go do a bit of research and open my Bible!

• Regarding Moses, in Jude verse 9 we read that the archangel was arguing over the body of Moses. We can understand from this that Moses was resurrected at some point after his death, and taken to heaven. If his spirit had already gone to heaven, what was the archangel trying to do recovering his body? If only his spirit went to heaven, how was he able to appear together with Elijah who had been translated, so hadn’t experienced the separation of body and spirit? They would have had to appear simultaneously but in different forms?
• When He died, Jesus was in the tomb for three days until His resurrection. I don’t know if the Catholic Church teaches only His body was there, or also His soul? When He resurrected, He said “I have not ascended to my Father yet”. So if Jesus hadn’t gone to paradise yet, that means the thief hadn’t gone with Him anywhere yet. Certainly not on the same day of their death. We also know that the Greek text did not provide any punctuation. I have heard, although not researched myself, that there is ongoing debate about the placing of the comma in that sentence. You seem very knowledgeable so perhaps have extra input on this.
• Dying would not directly bring Paul into the presence of Christ, but if we take the Bible’s teaching as truthful, “the dead know nothing”, so he wouldn’t know he was waiting for the resurrection. He would die, then the next conscious experience would be being resurrected by God.
• The souls under the altar is an interesting one, it has made me dive a little deeper into this. First of all, Revelation is full of symbolism that we mostly interpret, correctly, as not being literal. I don’t understand why in the middle of such a symbolic book, anyone would select a few verses to support a point and imply they paint a literal picture. Second of all, which altar are these souls under? The altar of sacrifices (burnt offering) or incense? The first altar in the tabernacle is where the lamb was slain and represents Jesus’ sacrifice and death. Why would the souls of the martyrs be under this altar in heaven? It makes much more sense to me if we interpret this symbolically, like in Genesis where Abel’s blood is crying out from the ground. It represents the saints / innocents crying out due to the injustice they are living here on earth. Lastly, I have tried to understand these verses in Revelation literally, and it brought up another question - are the souls of the martyrs suffering in heaven then? Crying out and wishing for vengeance, instead of living a peaceful and happy afterlife in the presence of God? How does the Catholic Church explain this, are all souls of the deceased able to watch down and observe the pain and suffering we (their descendants and loved ones) are enduring on this earth? That would be quite a distressing afterlife.

What do you think about Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Paul saying in Thessalonians that the dead in Christ will rise first? Do the souls come back to earth to join the resurrecting bodies? In 1 Corinthians 15, he also says there is no resurrection of Jesus if we don’t also believe in the resurrection of the dead. So believing only in one without the other would make our faith pointless.

God has always used human leadership, guided by the Holy Spirit, to govern His people.

Completely agree. I never said that God only used believers outside of the Catholic Church to preserve the truth and establish a canon. EG White herself states that through times, God had His faithful people working for Him, whether affiliated to a church or in the shadows of the ruling one. You say the Catholic Church protected the Scriptures - why then, was there so much opposition to lay people having access to it and reading it, during the Middle Ages? Why was the canon modified at the council of Trent?

I have reread Acts 15 and do not see what you describe as Peter having higher authority than any of the other apostles present. The debate did not end with Peter’s words. We see Paul, Barnabas and James speaking. It is the latter that suggests a solution in verses 19-20. Verse 22 speaks to how they all came in agreement and decided who they would send where. Ephesians 2:19-20 says the church was built on the foundation of multiple apostles and prophets, and that Jesus is the cornerstone of the church.

I never affirmed the pope is seen as a replacement to the Holy Spirit, but correct me if I’m wrong in affirming he is seen as a representative of God/Jesus here on earth by the Catholic Church. Why do we need a representative when we can go straight to God with our requests and confessions? We already have Jesus interceding in heaven for us, and the Holy Spirit guiding us on this earth.

Why would a representative of God have been so set on killing the reformers who advocated for people’s right to read the Bible, and pointed to the errors of the church at the time? Why was the representative of God so against their teachings that grace only can buy your pardon, and that everyone should be able to study that and all other teachings for themselves?

Edited for a name mistake and to say I’ve been on and off Mumsnet doing house chores this evening. If there is anything I haven’t answered I’ll be happy to go through it again later on :)

@MissConductUS thank you also for those links. I am afraid they do not provide a scientific explanation for those events, only recount the evidence of them being reported. The article itself says:

The high percentage of accurate out-of-body observations during near-death experiences does not seem explainable by any possible physical brain function as it is currently known.

There is still a lot we don’t know about the brain and how the body functions. I’m curious, do you interpret near-death experiences as the soul shortly existing independently of the body, but in a near space, or does it travel somewhere and rejoin the body?

From the second link, I take it you believe in reincarnation (or the possibility of it). Is this a common belief in the Episcopal Church, and if not, how does that compare with the most accepted interpretations of the state of the dead?

@MissConductUS forgot to say that the SDA church being quite dogmatic and literal or strict in its teachings, is a common (mis?)conception and one of the reasons I started the thread today, I think.

I do think our interpretation of the Bible is viewed generally as quite literal or extreme compared to other denominations, but I also think the church attracts a lot of very dogmatic people who take this even further, and defend quite strongly very strict or closed religious views that do not actually align with what we (should) stand for.

I wonder which region of the US you are in. I don’t have a lot of first-hand experience of American SDA churches, but here in European our perception of them is that they are either very liberal, or very conservative, with almost no in-between. You have the super-modern, casual dressers who hold evangelical-like services with lots of singing and spiritual experiences, and then on the other hand the long-skirts, homeschool-their-kids and believe-we-must-live-off-the-grid ones who seem almost scared of the outside world and of living “in the world”.

America seems to attract such a vast variety of religious groups and extreme lifestyles…

What is your basis for not drinking alcohol when Jesus's first miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding?

@SDAchurchAMA do you think it is mean not to give presents or celebrate children's birthdays?

We believe it is our responsibility to keep our bodies as healthy as possible, so we advocate abstinence from alcohol, drugs, etc - as this has been proven to have a negative effect on health. The Bible doesn’t say thou shalt not drink, but it does warn against drunkenness and reminds us our bodies are like temples and we must care for them.

I personally chose not to drink long before starting on my faith journey, as there is a history of alcoholism in my family and I’ve seen first hand its harmful effects on those who end up abusing its consumption.

I think that’s mean, yes. I always celebrated my birthdays as a child and always give gifts to my parents, siblings, my little nieces and nephews… Birthdays are joyous occasions.

(edit to add - unless the birthday person has specifically told you not to bring it up 😂)

Thank you for this question. I had actually never thought about the creation of parasites and bacteria specifically, but the Bible says that God made His creation perfect - as in, it was good and working well. There was no death and disease in the original created world. I don’t know exactly which creatures and organisms were created by God himself, and which evolved later.

So is it creationism or evolution? Or are you saying god created the first creatures and they have evolved since?

“I imagine if viruses as such existed, they were working for the good of whatever being they inhabited in, were not actively harmful and causing death or disease.

Even today we inject live viruses into our bodies to build immunity and protect us from certain diseases.”

vaccines are rarely live viruses or bacteria

“The same way animals and humans coexisted peacefully, there was no violence or killings in the animal kingdom. “

what did they all eat? Were the carnivores not carnivores before the fall?

“When sin entered the world through humans disobeying God, pain and suffering also came in. What were perfect beings, became corrupted and capable of killing or harming.
I believe there is an ongoing fight, or war, between God and the evil forces of Satan.”

so, a naughty boy did it and ran away, it’s not gods fault at all?

“Why does God “stand by” as children die, people to suffer from chronic pain, and all the awful things that happen in this world? I honestly cannot fully explain it.”

“I cannot explain why children go through the most awful things. It is terribly unfair. God weeps and suffers with us as He sees these things happening”

…but does nothing to stop them. Even though he’s omnipotent.

So many plot holes, I don’t understand blind faith. The lack of critical thinking actually scares me.

Great thread OP, really interesting.

What does a typical Christmas Day involve for you? Do you celebrate it? Or do you object the way that JW do?

My lovely parents in law were Adventists, as were/are all the relatives on my FIL's side, in another country where SDA is the main alternative to Catholicism (my husband had quietly stepped back from it by the time we were married).

They kept the Saturday Sabbath and didn't drink or smoke, but there was no judgment around it, and when they returned from visiting the family in the other country, my FIL would arrive weighed down with duty-free cigarettes and whisky for his neighbours!

He was briefly upset at my DH marrying out, but he was never anything other than welcoming, kind and generous to me.

So yep, I really don't see it as a cult. In my experience people varied in how strict they were. An uncle was vegetarian and quite prayer-y, while FIL ate everything other than pork (but would get pork pie in when his non-SDA nephew was visiting, because he knew it was his favourite!)

So thanks for doing this AMA. It's interesting to hear more of the belief system.

Do you believe that hell is a morally acceptable thing?

If we are all God's children, and he is all-powerful (ie. Satan has no real power over him, and he can decide who to send to hell or not) then how is it acceptable to condemn his own children to eternal hell, no matter what they've done, or what they believe? Isn't it monstrously cruel and petty to consign an imperfect, flawed human being to eternal suffering because they didn't think you existed, and refused to follow your rules?

I mean, I wouldn't do that. Am I more moral than God? 🤔 Frankly, it seems I might be, which is a worry.

Additionally, I always wonder: what did Satan ever do that was actually that bad in the bible? As someone who was brought up Pentecostal Christian, who read the bible a good deal as a child and teenager I could never figure out what he actually did wrong, which wasn't sanctioned by God.

God's 'kill count' in the bible was enormous, as well as his endorsement of incest, slavery, rape, and child murder, but what did Satan actually do? Think he could do a better job than God? I mean...maybe he wasn't wrong!

I'm not sure why you're linking SDAs to JWs. They're not connected at all, and SDAs celebrate Christmas like everyone else.

I’m asking the OP. Not you.

My cousin married a woman who is a SDA and he became a member of the church. Apart from being busy every Saturday with church and meetings, his life doesn't seem different. His wife's family are lovely, the pastors at the wedding were friendly and welcoming to the non-SDA guests.
My question is, is it a rule that a SDA has to give a proportion of their income to the church? I know my cousin and his wife struggle with money despite both having decent jobs. They told me they donate a proportion of their salary to the church monthly. My aunt says it's a rule for church members, but I'm not sure if she's got that right.
Apologies if this has already been asked and I've missed it.

Also, just out of interest - as I said, I was raised Pentecostal Christian, and all through my childhood I tried desperately to believe in God, as I was told I would go to hell if I didn't, and the possibility of that being true terrified me... But I just couldn't. It's always just seemed a flimsy, morally dubious, obviously fictional story to me, and no matter how hard I tried to make myself believe, I never could.

What's your take on that? Am I hell-bound for my inability to believe, in your opinion?

@Ileithyia
So is it creationism or evolution? Or are you saying god created the first creatures and they have evolved since?
Yes, as I said in an earlier post, I believe in creation and in micro-evolution. They are not mutually exclusive. I believe God created the natural habitat we live in, but that species do evolve and mutate biologically in time, God may not have made exactly all the same species of cats we have today on the planet, for example. I don’t know which plants, animals etc existed at Creation and how they have evolved since.

what did they all eat? Were the carnivores not carnivores before the fall?
I believe they weren’t, but I have no idea what they would’ve eaten. It’s not something that consumes my sleep to be fair.

so, a naughty boy did it and ran away, it’s not gods fault at all?
No, Satan did not run away at all, neither is it God’s fault. If a toddler sticks their finger in a power socket and gets electrocuted, is it the fault of his parents that he felt that electric shock? They told him many times not to stick his fingers there, they are not evil parents for not controlling his every move 24/7 so that he gets hurt or has an accident. Our actions bring consequences (whether we understand them or not when we take that action), and sin brings consequences too.

…but does nothing to stop them. Even though he’s omnipotent.
If God stopped every bad thing that happened, He would be a controlling God. One who monitors and guides every single move we do, and doesn’t allow us to think or decide for ourselves. Humans, thankfully, have free will. He could’ve stopped the rebellion in heaven, but that would have proven Lucifer’s point. God lets us choose.

So many plot holes, I don’t understand blind faith. The lack of critical thinking actually scares me.
Blind faith is surely a complex thing. I don’t always understand it myself, and I actually have to employ an awful lot of critical thinking on a daily basis in order for me to exercise my faith. It’s not easy, and not as simple as “trusting blindly” and not giving it a second thought. Most people who have a religious faith, struggle with the logic of it and don’t easily grasp all these difficult topics.

Out of curiosity, how do you explain all the bad things that happen in the world?

My Christmas celebrations involve a Christmas dinner on the 24th, as that’s when my country celebrates it, lots of Christmas music as I cook or help my mum cook, from Silent Night all the way to dancing to Mariah Carey lol. We’ll open heaps of sweet Christmas treats and slowly work our way through them all the way to Three Kings’ Day in January. We do presents on the evening of the 24th, then the 25th typically involves a long walk on the beach and Christmas movie marathons.

There are many Adventists who celebrate this way (most of the ones I know), but also some who believe putting a Christmas tree up is “a sin”, and who campaign hard against marking Christmas in any way. In my community, they are a very small minority. Our church gets decorated in the run up to Christmas, we sing carols, we’ll do a special collection for the food bank, etc.

Your PIL and relatives sound lovely. I have myself in the past gifted bottles of wine, even though I don’t drink them, and have no issue with guests in my home storing ham or bacon in the fridge. I’m glad you got to meet such nice people.

@OtterlyAstounding for starters, I don’t believe in eternal hell. I believe those who go to heaven - aka haven’t accepted God’s sacrifice for them (however that may look, not all will be professed Christians), will be destroyed in hell, but won’t be burning or suffering forever and ever. The Greek word used in the Bible for “everlasting hell” means final destruction. It can’t be undone, its result is final, but it doesn’t mean we’ll be slow-burning for eternity. That’s physically not possible.

Satan believed He was better than God, and incited those around him to think the same. He created a so-called war in heaven, inciting the rest of the angels to doubt God’s authority. A third of the angels followed him when he was asked to leave. If you have a rift in a big organised group, say a political party, and someone doubts your leadership, don’t you exclude those who don’t believe in your cause anymore?

It’s not a rule as in, you won’t be asked to leave or your name checked against the church records to see if you’re giving money each month. Your membership doesn’t depend on it.

One of our fundamental beliefs, as supported by the Bible, is tithing our income. I give 10% of my salary back in tithe to God. Just as in the Old Testament, this money is used to support church workers (pastors and other ministers), school teachers, and wider church projects and mission. People are also called to give offerings to different church departments or charitable organisations, everyone is free to decide the amount. I mostly donate to church projects but also give sometimes to other charities and causes that matter to me.

We are called to be faithful in how we manage our income, and to “give joyfully”. The Bible teaches us to return 10% of our income but the church doesn’t, or shouldn’t, keep a record of who gives what. My mum was our local church treasurer for a very long time, processing over 200 members’ givings every week. Not once did she comment on any specific person and whether they tithed, or how much they earned. She did openly talk (to the wider church, not at home) about the percentage of members who tithe, it was never anything close to 100%.

Some people choose not to give tithe to the church, many also give anonymously. So it’s not a rule, but a core belief and in my personal experience as a Christian, an exercise of faith. I have struggled for money in the past but always set apart my tithed income and it has been a blessing to me, trusting God and seeing Him at work in that way.

Edit to add - I can believe some churches and pastors put a lot of pressure on their members to tithe, and give more money to the church. That should never be the case, and according to the worldwide church manual, a treasurer and their assistants should be carefully elected and must remain discreet about their work at all times. Those churches are likely not managing their finances transparently tbh, since the local church doesn’t keep a big part of the money coming in anyway, it must be passed on to the conference or union level. I have some friends who have stopped giving tithe to their local churches as they believe there is too much corruption at the top level.

Faith is hard. I’m not sure I believe myself some days too. I don’t think we can make ourselves believe through our own human and logical abilities. It is God who works on our hearts in minds and gives us the understanding that we need in order to believe in Him, or not. I don’t think you’re hell-bound, no. Many churches like to scare people with the idea of hell, and I find that disgusting. Jesus talked about hell a handful of times. 99% of his message was centred around love, acceptance, and how best we can live exemplary lives that inspire others to be better. That is, or should be, the point of His teachings and what any so-called Christian church promotes and talks about too.

Interesting, so you believe that what happens to unbelievers is what atheists already believe happens to everyone?

As for 'physically not possible' though, can't God do anything? Couldn't our 'souls' be tormented for eternity? Is heaven 'physically possible', for that matter, if you think Hell isn't? In which case, heaven can't exist either, by your logic?

Right, so do we know that Satan wouldn't be better? After all, God hasn't done a very good job, and in the Bible, God endorses murder, slavery, rape, and incest...

While, what does Satan actually do? He gives Adam and Eve knowledge (if you believe the serpent was Satan, which was what I was always taught), God dared him and challenged him to torment Job, and he tries talk reason into Jesus?

Based on the evidence that we have, God is a much worse, crueller, more immoral being than Satan.

I love the idea of Satan taking Jesus off into the desert and saying ‘Look, this whole Son of God thing isn’t going to end well’ and ‘What about a hobby? Marry some nice girl?’ for 40 days.