MNHQ here: AMA with Baroness Beeban Kidron - leading digital rights campaigner, member of the House of Lords and former Hollywood film director, 23rd June, 7-9pm

[RhiannonEMumsnet]

Hi there,

We’re delighted to announce an AMA with leading digital rights campaigner, member of the House of Lords and former Hollywood film director Baroness Beeban Kidron, on Tuesday 23rd June, 7-9pm.

She’ll be discussing her new book USERS: How Big Tech Took Control and How to Fight Back:

“One of the earliest and most relentless advocates for online protections for children - and a prescient voice on the risks of AI – Beeban Kidron takes readers on a journey from the halls of Parliament and the UN to the White House and Silicon Valley. Through her encounters with specialist police officers, bereaved parents, lobbyists and tech bros, Users demonstrates the unchecked power of Big Tech, as they avoid rules and regulations, and capture governments that are meant to protect us.

“The issue is not technology itself, but its use and abuse. How tools built to connect people are redeployed to divide, punish, distract, and control; while our tech overlords come to own everything – but continue to be held responsible for nothing. Now that we know their game, it's time to fight back.”

Please post your questions below and join Beeban on the thread on Tuesday evening to hear the answers. Everyone who posts will be entered into a draw to win one of five copies of USERS*.

As always, please remember our guidelines - one question per user, follow-ups only if there’s time and most questions have been answered, and please keep it civil.

Thanks,
MNHQ

*Competition Ts and Cs apply.

Love the name seether – as a fellow seether. Earlier today I was called an optimist -TWICE!! Which believe me feels like a personal best.

But I think we are at a moment of understanding – that its not just kids or creativity, but our jobs our values our security – indeed everything has been ‘internetted’. I have tried to explain how we got here in my book - but the important bit is the subtitle – HOW TO FIGHT BACK – which is the subject of the final chapter. I think we are at a crossroads, we need to make decisions about how we spend our attention (the source of their wealth) and how we use our democracy (we still live in one!). I have spoken to over 2000 people in the last few weeks and have yet to find a single one who voted because of tech policy – I think that will change and the 2029 election will be concerned about child safety, sovereignty, information integrity, security and jobs jobs jobs –then things will change.

In fact we have seen Brazil take on X, Malaysia and Indonesia take on Grok. India take on Amazon. Australia take on SM companies. Parents take on Instagram, Snap and Tik Tok. California on chatbots, the CMA (in the UK) are taking decisions about Google. Pope Leo taking on AI companies. And many more. Its not one thing but many things, and it comes to a tipping point when things change. My book, and this thread, the parents movements, and children's organisations is an invitation to you all to be part of that change.

So difficult. I have a long list.
Mark Zuckerberg overruling his shareholders when I won a shareholder vote for listing children's harms in their annual report. People inside who think that they are 'doing their best' while kids get harmed. Pension plans that put our money into companies that are hurting children. Politicians who get headlines but resist change.... per the previous post...I believe we are on the cusp of change so I dont want to be bitter. But one of the moments that confirmed my decision to do this rather than make movies was when a 'trust and safety' executive from one of the companies said to me 'we call them the lost generation'. we know in the future we will have to design differently but that is in the future. yep that is probably not the most shocking but it is motivating xx

This is inspiring, thank you!

Right now, I would say no device of their own. A shared computer in a public place. A brick phone if that is necessary – it may not be. And family shared time watching, learning, playing, creating online.

Its important that a restriction is not the same as a punishment. That the things you do together - even if it is dancing to Spotify or playing Fifa - that they have stuff that they understand and can refer to so they are not left out. Sharing tech takes almost all the harms away – especially if all the alerts, autoplay etc etc are turned off and if it is just one of many things you do.

I would also say give them a wrist watch and help them find a hobby. The wrist watch is so they don’t pick up a phone to tell the time. And, the hobby thing is really important – especially if it involves friends and other young people. ALL the research finds that kids with hobbies come out the best – drama, sport, reading, long-form content like tv and movies, music, collecting stuff, camping – whatever.

I would also make deals with other parents on group rules – it is not the end of the world if they get broken – but what you are setting is culture and habit – and what the tech companies are doing it trying to set a culture and a habit & yours is preferable so worth fighting for!

Honestly I think digital ID will probably bite the dust with the change in PM . I am personally not for digital ID, but I do think if government online services were better we might WANT a better log in - but it was a policy in search of a problem.

But I am very worried about privacy from Big Tech who want to extract money and attention from us at all costs. They know what you will spend, how tall you are, your appetites in sex, food and shopping, your age, your family make up – all of which gives them a great deal of power. I consider myself a privacy activist - I introduced the first data privacy law for under 18s in the world - but privacy has been weaponised by the companies. They get us worried about privacy from the state, whist tracking your every move. Many of the organisations (not all) that valorise privacy are paid for by big tech so it depends who is suggesting that digital ID is the greatest concern. A sector that has impunity to harm kids or surge price us, change sexual appetites of men at population level, etc etc worry me more than the state knowing who we are on a basis that is routine across much of the worlds liberal democracies - even though its not what I would do.

Thank you for all the fantastic questions and answers everyone- really enjoyed the chat! Baroness Kidron - what would you like us to know as a parting message to friends and family?

Ohhhh thank you – I am so excited that people have got some early copies and are reading it. It is my first book.

My Hollywood story might have to be for another day – it is long – but the short version is I made two things for the BBC one Oranges are Not the Only Fruit – Jeanette Winterson’s autobiography – and Antonia and Jane a comedy.

Oranges brought me to the attention of Larry Gordon, who I ended up making my first Hollywood film for (Used People which Shirley Maclaine and Marcello Mastroianni .

Antonia and Jane was seen by Stephan Spielberg and George Lucas who together paid for me to go to LA! And then it was bought by Harvey Weinstein to distribute in the US. I

eventually fell out with Harvey because he tried to bully me over a cut of a film I made for his company Miramax, but I did not have myself or know about the experience that other women had.

And I salute those who came forward to share that experience and to give rise to the MeToo movement.

Beeban,

Thank you very much for coming on to MN.

May I ask, do you know much about the site? Does it have any particular ‘reputation’ would you say in (a) the Lords, and (b) the creative industries?

I’m fascinated by its perceived reach. (Been on here for many years …)

I do actually tell a bit of this story in my book. But while I was still a filmmaker I started a charity called FilmClub – that led me into the area of education and third sector world where people were working to do things for our broader community or politics and that led me to being on the British Film Institute, and persuading politicians to do something creative to educate kids…

Going into the lords was a surprise to say the least... but I had not been there very long when I walked into my kitchen and found four 15 year old girls not talking - looking at a screen – and I wondered what it meant to grow up being in my kitchen and somewhere else at the same time ......and I picked up my camera…. what I discovered has been my life since, the subject of USERS and my activism. I never made another film since.

The Lords has been good for me. Being a crossbencher has benefits (you never have to vote against your values and you get to go home earlier on nights when the parties are battling out something you are not part of), but it does mean you are dependent on the opposition parties for support – which is not always forthcoming. I have fabulous colleagues from all the political parties - right across both houses but I have been disappointed by the current government who always used to vote with me until they got into power.

I am there between 2-4 times a week!

Thinking about Weinstein and #MeToo and the general sex/power dynamics of lots of industries it strikes me that most of the big tech bosses - that I’ve heard of at least - are male. Do you think everything would be different if it was women in charge in big tech?

P.s. thank you for all your chunky and interesting answers so far - lots to read through and ponder!

If one of us has a follow-up after 9pm, might we write to you at the Lords?

I put a whole list in the last chapter – not things you must do – but some things that work for some people - its a pick and mix .

One thing I would suggest is to pick one not have them all! - let your mates know where you are so you can find them. But unfollow lots of things, dont click on the suggestions, turn off all your alerts sounds and vibrations so you are not being trained like a rat in a lab – and you attend to it when you decide.

All of which to say, they make it as seamless as possible so your whole body is trained to react and you can put a bunch of small barriers that makes it much more conscious so you make a choice to engage.

FWW I am not on SM because I get a lot of grief – and my life got richer – I even find I can read now.

I do I do. It is not a fair fight.

I am a Fellow at Oxford University, and a colleague there said on average 50% of his PHD students in behavioural psychology go to big tech – and that is not unusual across the discipline. So they have an army of engineers and psychologists trying to keep your kid online, and you have no time and lots to do.

In Users I explain how tech companies enjoy a level of unaccountability 'tech exceptionalism' that no other industry enjoys. We don’t have to work out whether the airbag works, the window is shatterproof, the steering wheel is properly adjusted every time you get into the car – it is SAFE BY DESIGN.

Tech sector produces and distributes - products - and they should be safe by design.

You made Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit? I'm sorry, I didn't recognise your name from it, but 💕!

And quite separately from that...

My goodness it is wonderful to see what you're saying and know you're in the House of Lords and can get stuff done! Well, as much as anyone can – I know there are no magic wands.

But the worrisome things you're saying I largely already knew; however seeing someone articulate them so clearly and at the same time have a vision for solutions and an appetite for the fight, has heartened me immensely this evening!

Thank you!

@Domcruise
Not sure about celebrity insights, although I can say that Patrick Swayze and Wesley Snipes were very competitive about who had the best legs in tights, when we were shooting To Wong Foo… and that Renee Zellweger did her own skiing in Bridget Jones Edge of Reason much to the worry of the producers.

As for the cross over, In film making you start with nothing, you have a vision of where you need to get, and you keep walking in that direction until you get there – there is no such thing as an empty screen on release day. That is good training for politics. And both tasks mean you work with an immensely broad set of people, backgrounds, skills, and talents.. but honestly it has been amazing to have 30 years as a film director then be a politician who works with some of the most brilliant people in tech (innovators and thinkers) - some of my favourite things in the book, are where I meet creative or brilliant people who use tech in ways that make you gasp. Including a bunch of teenagers who made me cry their inventions were so great.

i am lucky, I got to do both.

@ReginasProteinBar

Thank you. Very happy to be here.

Yes. My phone is filled with people who wish they did more when they had power. I think we will all wish we did more.

I am in no way cavalier it is an important question - and keep asking it of people in power. But we are 'on it' in the sense that there are powers (with the government) and promises (to parliamentarians) that this will be sorted. Unlike SM it will not take two decades ....(otherwise please join me in handcuffing myself to the railings at downing st)

I imagine from this comment that you have some specific case in mind. If I can help get in touch with me via parliament.

Specifically, thank you for spelling out this:

One thing worth watching as the plans for restricting access for under 16’s are fleshed out, is to make sure the government insists on privacy, and does not let either the tech companies or age assurance providers use it as a data land-grab. Governments are too quick to listen to arguments about ‘technical feasibility’.It is absolutely feasible to use private tokens for age checking – but commercial incentives mean that they always looking for ways to capture behavioural data.

And this:

I am very worried about privacy from Big Tech who want to extract money and attention from us at all costs. They know what you will spend, how tall you are, your appetites in sex, food and shopping, your age, your family make up – all of which gives them a great deal of power. [...] privacy has been weaponised by the companies. They get us worried about privacy from the state, whist tracking your every move. Many of the organisations (not all) that valorise privacy are paid for by big tech

Lets see what they do vis a vis data bases, I hope not, and they would be foolish not to consider adult security, adult privacy. More broadly - I have fought for kids for a long time, but what i try and show in USERS is that what happens online doesn't stay online and what happens to kids eventually happens to the rest of us... elsewhere I answered the optimistic pessimistic question - but honestly. I wrote my book to tell the story of how 'big tech' is impacting every area of our public and private life. My aim is to make you all more demanding - of those in power most definitely (and I say how), but also in your own lives, work and homes. This is a crisis that we need to fix together ....

Quick answer is - yes lobbying.
the money is a mirage. We have to look at growth in the real economy that helps household prosperity, not money for VC and tech bros. there is money in tech but not by giving it to Silicon Valley.

And the parliamentary committee system is one of the best, most independent of the political process's ... but prob to much to explain here... and at the risk of sounding immodest - the lobbying section of my book has some eye popping tales:)

Thank YOU. I really want everyone to know this is a quesiton of democratic control and we must insist. I would love you to read my book, but EVEN MORE I would like you to make sure that your MP knows that in 2029 or sooner you will be voting on tech policy ...

All of which to say, they make it as seamless as possible so your whole body is trained to react and you can put a bunch of small barriers that makes it much more conscious so you make a choice to engage.

^This, 100%.

The companies try to make the experience of staying on their apps all day friction-free. So that it becomes slightly easier for us to stay engaged with them than to make the active decision to tear ourselves away.

We need to introduce frequent little frictions. So that at each friction-event it becomes slightly easier for us to come off the app than stay on, and staying on is the thing that needs the active decision.

I know it is politically influential, and its campaigns hit our consciousness and that of government. I have not had direct help for my amendments from MN - but that might be my lack of engagement rather than yours. And I am thrilled by the interesting and properly informed questions in this thread

Thank you so much for that reply - and all your work in the Lords.