I breed & show dogs : AMA

[LandSharksAnonymous]

Two very different worlds - but I do both. 20 years experience in breeding, 10 in showing. My mum did both for 30+ years. Anything anyone would like to know?

You said you start training as soon as the other pups go to their homes, what do you teach them? Do you consider yourself to be an expert trainer?

By the way, Golden Retriever puppy photos are always welcome!

So I teach them the basics - sit and stay. Then I moved them onto extended sit and stay whilst I back away and they stay seated. My boy went through his awful period of doing a sit, then sodding laying down in the stay - so I had to go back to sit and then move back on. I also teach them to stand in a set position for a period of time - but I do that when they're a bit older as puppies can learn to sit and wait, but stand and wait is a hole different story IME!

I also had my mum, dad, sister, nephews, pet-less neighbours over to do things like handle his ears, groin, opening his mouth, running hands along his back - all before he goes out to see the world. I don't start off 'gentle' (i.e. only letting a few people do it) as I think having a dog used to being handled by lots of people is really crucial and the more people a dog is comfortable with when they are young - especially if that touching is in 'sensitive' places - the better! But that's the same for every dog - strange vets need to touch your dog yearly or so...so if your dog is happy to have uncle Dave rub the inside of his ear, then you're doing it well!

Also grooming and bathing - although I do both with the whole litter before they leave, alongside ear examinations (Goldies can be prone to ear issues) and checking the groin area (again because Goldies can be prone to cancer and if there's one area most dogs don't like being examined...it's their groin)

I definitely don't consider myself to be an expert trainer. I know Goldies well and I know what makes them tick, and I know how to handle issues like reactivity and resource guarding (not that mine have shown those issues) but that's based off years of talking to other breeders and breed enthusiasts and learning what they did.

I said upthread my mum bred for 30+ years but she now has a rescue Cocker who came to her with a host whole of issues (reactive, resource guarding, nervous, shadow chased etc) and that was such a learning experience for my mum but also me

The boy I kept from my last litter 😁

With each litter, do you generally allocate the puppies to their prospective owners based on the suitability of the home environment and lifestyle etc, or do you let the future owners choose?

I only ask, because my PIL were allocated the largest male puppy from a litter of five, by a friend of theirs who has over 30 years experience of breeding working GR. This was despite knowing they had never owned a large dog before, lived in a cramped inner-city town house and did not have the proper time of energy to train or exercise him properly. Four years on, and the dog has repeatedly shown aggression towards children, and was virtually uncontrollable on the lead.

Ordinarily I think that matching a puppy to their future owners by the breeder is a very sensible approach, but it certainly wasn't done well in the case of my PIL!

With each litter, do you generally allocate the puppies to their prospective owners based on the suitability of the home environment and lifestyle etc, or do you let the future owners choose?

So as part of my 'vetting' I ask what they're looking for in a dog - do they want a dog that can, for example, keep up with their children and who will be super playful but not highly energetic? Or do they want a dog that they can train to a high standards? Or do they want a running companion etc. Then I ask them what sex they would prefer - but I only try - in so much as I can - to prioritise this if they have an existing dog.

I don't let prospective owners choose because IME they would go for the puppy that 'cuddles' them the most, or they think is the pluckiest - and usually those puppies are only acting like that when prospective buyers are around because they want to be noticed and like new people.

For example, I had an older couple (late 60s) on my list for my last litter. They desperately wanted a bitch, they'd always had bitches. But, the bitches in that litter were all quite rambunctious compared to the boys - and particularly worse when it came to pushing boundaries, even at six weeks, and taking play fights to far. They ended up taking one of the boys after several visits and realising that even though he wasn't the right sex, he had everything they wanted in terms of personality - incredibly loyal, intelligent, highly motivated etc - and that the girls would be far too much hard work.

In your PIL case, it sounds like a Goldies might not have been the best choice for them in general - so the breeder probably should never have sold them a dog to begin with. Goldies are lovely, but under-exercised and under-stimulated they can, and do, go horribly wrong and because of their size it is a far bigger issue than something like a Cocker or a Beagle. Goldies are far higher maintenance than many people seem to realise...

“Goldies are far higher maintenance than many people seem to realise...”

Completely agree! I know I was surprised, and I’ve had dogs of various breeds nearly all my life. I honesty think their beauty and placid appearance deceives! I think your posts show the value in finding a breeder that is really attuned to her dogs and those who want a pup, that’s a great thing.

Thank you for the photos - I can feel the oxytocin bubbling up through my blood stream just looking at them!

I agree that goldies are more work than their darling faces make them look.

Thank you!

I know lots of people on mumsnet think breeders are grabby and only in it for the money - but IME those are the people who use the first breeder they find and don't search hard enough for a quality breeder. Good breeders are out there (I can think of a dozen good Goldie breeders I know of) you just have to really put the time, effort and patience into finding one and waiting rather than rushing for the first litter you see! Chances are, if you find a breeder in the first week of looking and they have puppies available...they aren't a breeder you want to use!

@LandSharksAnonymous - bit late to this thread, but it caught my attention.
My late parents were very involved in the dog world, showing, judging, secretary of their dog club etc, and rarely breeding the odd time. It was a huge and loved part of their entire lives.
I grew up with the dogs, loved them (sad when puppies went to point I couldn't be at home 🙈). They were a less common breed so that was good to see no real issues bred in with the aim of 'perfect breed standard'. I genuinely love the dog breed and most dogs tbh though more fearful of some now (more so their owners!).
I hope this question is ok, and I don't mean to be rude at all, but I genuinely have never understood the showing, or really the aim to win, based on the dog's closeness to breed standards. I understand dog clubs, getting together, showing your dog off (if it likes that!) but not the drive to achieve breed standard wins - particularly perhaps as this has resulted in some poor outcomes for some dog breeds. I did used to like, and understood, the agility rings though. I just couldn't debate this view on showing with my parents and can't ask the very kind dog club people who have helped with some memorabilia but hope a more anonymous type query is ok - what is got from the showing? I just hope to understand a bit better.
Also I've sadly found there was latterly quite some arguments in the club, to the point one friend struggled to attend my parents' funeral due to another person attending (both lovely people to me) - it seems very competitive at times and sometimes rather bitchy - it's a real shame as surely love for the dog breed is shared and primary - this a small breed as well. Hopefully, most dog clubs avoid this?
By the way - I chose moggie rescue cats as pets as an adult which my parents couldn't understand either so maybe it is just that simple!

@MsJinks For three reasons! B and C are the main reasons.

A) Getting an 18 month old Goldie to wait patently whilst he’s felt over and inspected after hours of waiting around being bored…it’s hard. Very few people will ever properly train their dog, but I like to know my dogs have been exposed to as much as possible when they’re young - including ‘unwanted’ touching given their breed as there are a lot of ‘unwanted touch era’ of Goldies out there. It gives me confidence in them that they are bomb proof which is important when I have so many of them!

2. Because it’s an incredibly good way to find in-tact male dogs for breeding. Lots of breeders will just go for whichever dog scored best at crufts in their ‘breed’ - and literally that’s it. But, that’s doesn’t necessarily mean the dog has the right temperament for a family pet, or that his hip or elbow scores are best. Showing gives me an opportunity meet the dogs in person - get a real sense of the dog. Yes, I know it’s not a guarantee of what the pups will be like but I want to be sure I’ve done all I can to ensure robust, healthy and happy puppies.

C) Thankfully Goldies have not gone the same way as GSDs or Frenchies…but by being involved in the breeding and showing of the breed it gives me a chance to do my bit to ensure it doesn’t happen. I can keep an eye on breed standards and can, and do, discuss particular grievances with others who show. I don’t want Goldies to go the way that other breeds have and I want to do my bit, if I can, to ensure it doesn’t happen.

Do I enjoy the show ring? Yes but if I had to give up breeding or showing, it would be showing in a heartbeat! Do I like some breeds ‘standards’? Definitely not - Frenchies are a case in point. I’ve never found my breed to be particularly bitchy, but I know that others very ‘cliquey.’ I have a lot of issues with the KC - I could write a book on it tbh - but the best way to effect change or protect my breed is by being involved in it

@LandSharksAnonymous - thank you 🙏- a very detailed, and understandable answer, from a very different perspective than I'd ever considered too - guess it was just such a part of my childhood I never examined it that closely - it just was attending shows and being happy with wins!
This makes perfect sense to me - you clearly love the Goldies and work for the best for them. Guess my impression, and from one of my parents, was that the winning gave most joy, and was the aim to get the 'best' dog, and I have seen this with some other people I think - guess that's just a smaller part of the picture that is inevitable alongside the overall love for the dog amongst owners.
The challenge will definitely have appealed to both; they enjoyed helping with training dogs, and training judges as well.
The other parent probably much more interested in the dog, as you are in the Goldies, and particularly keen on ensuring no overbreeding happened and I know they felt that was easier in a less popular breed. They got the breed registered in the 60s with the KC, and yes beaurocracy and interesting views! But they gave a lot to the breed over many decades, and it all meant so much to them that it's great to have this new understanding that it was mainly for the dog breed love now - thank you so much.
It now seems a bit of a silly question in a way - but thank you - so glad I spotted this thread.

You say that you won't sell to first time owners? What would you prefer they do in that situation? Get a golden retriever from a non-reputable breeder?

The owners aren’t the OP’s problem, surely. Her responsibility is to her puppies, and she doesn’t want to risk them with completely inexperienced owners when she has better options.

OP, a question from someone who knows nothing about dogs or breeding — how much do your pups sell for? Is a litter profitable the way you do it?

Thanks for this AMA. It’s been very interesting to catch a glimpse of a world.

Yes, I understand that completely. Just sad for potential dog owners, who are trying to do the right thing by going to a responsible breeder.

@MsJinks - glad I was able to help in any way 😊I do genuinely love Goldies and I'd be devastated if they ever went the same way as GSDs with the slopey legs that make them unable to walk properly

@Christmasgiraffe - @MinorGodhead is correct. The way I look at it is I'm not here to find people a puppy, I'm here to find my puppies the best home possible and, IME, that is rarely with a first time owner. Yes, first time owners can make amazing owners but am I willing to take that risk for my puppies? Honestly, no. I know other breeders who are truly excellent who breed Goldies who do sell to first time owners - so there are some around.

@MinorGodhead - I sell a puppy for £2,500. Last litter was 9 puppies (but I kept one after a family fell through and I gave one to my sister). The cost of sperm, DNA testing for the puppies, vet check-ups for the bitch (and revised health tests as I test every two years for certain conditions as it can change over time), fresh bedding, wormer, microchipping, KC registration, solid food, toys etc, cost just over £4K. It would cost more, but I had the whelping pen, newspapers etc already to go. So, that would make my 'profit' about £13.5K. Which, in theory for three months work is fab (and I know people will say it is).

But, it's not just about the money at the end. It's about the time that goes into raising them properly (if, being crass, you consider an 'hourly rate'). I was with the puppies 24/7 for the first six weeks or so (literally sleeping on a mattress next to the whelping box). I did sensory and socialisation work with them from pretty much week 2/3. I cleaned the whelping box almost instantly every time one of them produced a wee or poo etc. I don't think I left the pups or mum alone for more than 30 minutes in the first six weeks - my mum took my other dogs for walks etc. When you breed properly, it becomes your life for the weeks before the litter is born until the day they go and it's completely exhausting.

Sooo...a very long answer to say...no, the way I breed and the way the 'good breeders' (i.e. those who have 1 litter a year or less) breed, is not profitable at all in terms of 'pay.' If you're having multiple litters a year, and therefore not doing it properly, then yes it's more than profitable.

Thanks, @LandSharksAnonymous — absolutely no need to justify the cost to me! I was simply wondering whether breeding puppies with what sounds like optimal care and experience was profitable, when one hears a lot about indiscriminate puppy farmers who are absolutely in it for cash, and I realised I had no idea at all what the ballpark figure for a GR puppy would be from either a careful, ethical breeder or the dodgiest puppy farmer.

Who tend to be your buyers (other than not first-time dog owners who either have someone at home or WFH, have an appropriate home, don’t have young children and can afford to buy your puppies)? I note you require potential buyers to show you bank statements — is this to prove they can afford food, vet bills etc? Or to show there’s no immediate danger of the kind of change in circumstances you mentioned somewhere?

Thank you, again. It’s another world!

@LandSharksAnonymous - my parents ended up having a GSD as their retirement dog - but I remember quite clearly 50 years ago how they used to look as one of their friends trained RAF dogs - so sad and I hope the KC starts (or continues) following up more rigorously across all breeds.
Interestingly one of their own dog club rows (after their time) was over concern someone was breeding in a slope - at least showing this was thoroughly looked out for and stopped before it started - if it was even being started which was debatable I understand, 🙈, but at least not going to happen. Breed standards do however seem to be arguable/interpreted differently between owners, and potentially change over time.
One of the items I passed on was some original breed standards or at least those used from the 60s, and this was greatly welcomed as it seemed to still be being debated which or what was right.

@MinorGodhead - Most (good) breeders I know sell for about £2,500. A few chancers try for £3,000 and there's a few at the £2,200(ish) mark. But puppy farmers will charge a similar amount and people tend to think that because their dog cost X amount that it's been well-bred and isn't from a puppy farm!

The bulk of buyers are usually older couples close to or newly retired. Other than that it's usually couples in their 40s with older children (10+). The oldest person I've sold a puppy to was 73. I know some breeders won't sell to people over a certain age as they worry about the dog being exercised, but as long as the buyer is healthy and has a support system in place (friends or family who can help out should something happen) I am more than happy for them to have a puppy as I've always found they tend to be the ones who love and treasure the dog most.

And bank statements are exactly as you say - proof they can afford the dog - just because someone can afford to pay £2,500 one doesn't mean they can afford the upkeep. My boy costs around £200-£250 a month (insurance, food, worming, tick treatment etc). I could spend less, but realistically a Goldie sets you back at least £150 a month given the cost of insurance, and that's not an insignificant sum.

On the back of a thread that appeared a couple of days ago, about the ethics of "affording" pets, the one thing I'm curious about is the financial aspect. Namely the bank statements.
We always buy our pups from small, established kennels. We have 100% commitment to our dogs but we don't have a massive income. Partner works from home, I'm not working due to MH issues.

We've had home checks, given written references and been endorsed by other breeders but we've never been asked for bank statements. I wouldn't be averse to that on principle, though my partner might because our view is that it doesn't always mean anything. We think it's about priorities and commitment. Lavish lifestyle can eat up a lot of money for some high earners and mean they have less time with their dogs/less commitment.

So I'm curious about it. Do you have an actual cut-off income level for your puppy buyers or are there other mitigating factors? We've never bred and don't plan to but I suppose I'm just curious as to how breeders actually make the decision as to whether you are good enough or can afford the necessary food/insurance/veterinary treatment, when they don't really know how much you might spend on holidays, meals out and alcohol. Which in our case is zero.
I guess regardless of experience, every time we start searching for a pup I still have that fear of being turned down... Have you ever felt like you've got it wrong with a buyer you've accepted or rejected?

(sorry for the very long-winded question)

@CoubousAndTourmalet - oh no 'income cut off' at all. I don't want to give the impression I look at someone's bank statements and go 'Oh they're only on £18K and their partner is on benefits, no puppy for them!' Because it's not like that, at all - if it was, I wouldn't sell to any of the couples in their 60s who are interested (given they tend to have lower incomes). I just want to be sure that the person buying hasn't, for example, been scraping every last penny they have to afford this pup and then will be unable to afford insurance. As you say, it's about priorities and dogs are a 10+ year commitment and there are lots of people who on paper seem like the right owner, who aren't and lots who seem like the worst owner possible and who actually turn out to be the best owners.

Bank Statements are also (unofficially - i.e. not the reason I ask at all) a good way to ensure you're not being lied to about where the puppy will live. I've had people try and pull that trick before - give their parents, or a relatives address, and show me around (via video) that house. Say that's where the puppy will live with that owner. Then when it comes to bank statement time...entirely different address with that same alleged owner.

I've never sold a puppy and regretted it. There has been one person I wouldn't sell a pup to who I do sometimes think about and wonder if I made the wrong call - but I wasn't comfortable will her living arrangements (very small flat - under 50sqm - no garden at all and in the office 2/3days a week). It was that dual combination that made me worried. She would have been a great owner, I think, just not for a Goldie.

Ultimately, the main thing I look for - and the thing that will surpass all other requirements - is clear evidence they will love that puppy as much as I love mum, grandma and great-grandma. My other 'criteria' just help me narrow that field down a bit.

All most good breeders want is to know that their puppies will go to the best possible home and that's why a good breeder should 100% be asking to see your house, your experience with dogs, how often you're out the house etc.
This doesn't mean the richest family, or the one that will take them out 2-3 times a day every day, or the family where they get top of the range food, or the one with a huge garden or even the one where there is someone there all day. It just means the family that understand that the dog needs to be a, if not the, top priority.

Sorry...that got VERY long 😁

Thanks @LandSharksAnonymous That's a really thorough reply.

It hadn't even occurred to me that people would give a fake address but now I suppose I can see that it's not at all straightforward to find perfect homes for your precious pups. You have confirmed for me now that it's probably actually quite stressful interviewing prospective buyers and I hadn't fully appreciated that before.

We ultimately decided not to breed, despite having endorsements lifted by the breeder of one of the bitches that we were showing some years ago. We always felt it would be impossible to find 10 perfect homes and we'd end up keeping more than one pup. I think it was a good decision for us, despite being wholly committed to our breed and, I think, understanding its traits pretty well by now.

And by the way, yes, we're now 60ish, one modest but not tiny salary, but no huge mortgage, no kids at home, no exotic holidays. Just a quiet life and surrounded by open countryside, so I'm guessing we might still pass muster with some breeders and that's good to know. We might manage to have one more pup before we decide we're getting too old for a large breed.

Thank you for your reply. This has been an interesting thread.

Can we have photos!

They're further upthread! I don't share photos of puppies I have sold - but the one upthread is of the boy I kept 😊

You sound like the kind of breeder I try to find for when I’m ready for another dog. Someone who looks at whether a potential buyer is good enough for one of their pups. I bet you have waiting lists.

I’m not the right owner for a golden retriever but I adore fussing over the ones I see on my walks. My two favourites are an 11 year old boy who walks at his own pace, off lead, who always comes over to me for pets and only leaves when he feels he’s had enough attention and a young failed guide dog who is all about exploring and refuses to walk with his person and their other dog - he works around them!

Thank you @Birdscratch! I try to be a good breeder! I have to confess my boy used to be like failed guide dog you mentioned - but now he knows I am the chicken fairy and has fallen in line 😃