I have a 2 year old who goes to bed late and stays asleep until 10:30am or later

[LateRiser]

I have a 2 year old who usually wakes up between 10:30-11:30 and goes to bed anytime between 11-12:30. He will occasionally go to sleep between 7pm-9pm if he’s really tired/been woken up early and not napped. There are also days where he will be awake until 1/2am if he’s napped late.

I don't see the issue if they are getting the recommended 12ish hours of sleep for a 2 year old, but it may create issues later on if you need to get them up for things. I used to sleep around 12am (back on the day when people didn't care about these things and my parents worked late so an early bedtime wasn't an option anyway, also co-slept until I was about 6) when I was younger too, I can't say it did me any harm (that I know of!)

If he wakes at 11:30 and it starts getting dark at 4:30 that's not much time for fresh air and day light. Your child basically gets half the day for fresh air and day light whereas other kids have the whole day. That personally would bother me so much! Children need daylight.

Start bedtime 10 mins earlier each night until you reach 7.30 or so

If it is a problem to you because you have something on early the next day, you could miss the nap and get the grumpy boy to bed by 8 pm then wake him earlier for that appointment.
That will work for one offs.

When he starts school he will no longer be having the afternoon nap so will probably be happier to go to bed at around 8 pm and rise at 7:30 am.

It helps for the body to have some sunshine early in the morning to set the circadian rhythms and regulate the way melatonin works to promp the body to sleep.

You all will benefit from getting up earlier every day when your DS needs to get to school by 8:30 am. You might all be able to go to sleep earlier like him.

Same. DS goes to bed and wakes up at those times too, and I often get comments about how late it is. But it works for him and works for us.

As you say, we wouldn’t see him during the week otherwise, and it very much is a cultural thing. My background isn’t British but my DH is - he had a big issue with the bed time at first because he would think children need to go down at 7, but I kept challenging him to tell me why, and he couldn’t. And now he sees those times work well for our family. I just have to deal with my in laws often making a comment when we see them.

This is a really good point, melatonin and vitamin D is so important

I didn't ask for advice. I'm doing the best I can. To whoever said dont use the car....impossible with 3 older children and a husband who works every hour. My ds was in the garden every day and outdoors we're possible when possible. It's too cold atm anyway and I dreaded the winter keeping him occupied for this reason. He loves outdoors. Putting him in the garden now he's back in in a few minutes and closes the door 🤣 Taking him outdoors for a walk he wants lifted after a few minutes which isn't him so it's the cold he doesn't enjoy. Like I said everything has been trued and failed. He's delayed in understanding and speech too so can't have a simple conversation with him about going to bed. Time to go to bed and stay in bed etc. So he's with me and his safety is the priority.

It is interesting. I think it’s because staying in bed late is seen as slovenly and lazy, which is a bit odd because going to bed at 9 and waking at 5 would be seen as virtuous but going to bed at 1am and staying in bed until 9 isn’t.

I know I had around a year of my DS waking between 5 and 530 regardless of when he went to bed or if he napped or how often he napped and it drove me a bit do-lally. Nothing we did made any difference so I can see some kids just can’t be forced into a different routine.

@SuperDopper @TashieWoo my DD (21m) goes to bed 9-9.30pm too and it's what she naturally does so I just follow her lead. I don't want her go to bed 7pm as she would wake far too early.

It sounds like you wake him for scheduled activities but what about going for a walk, feeding ducks or playing in a play area? The time to interact with other children his age is in the daytime. What is he getting up to whilst he’s up late?

What’s he like with eating?

OP?

Are there any other signs he isn't neurotypical? As in the only families I know with this issue, the child was eventually diagnosed with autism.

My 2 older children have autism and my 2 year old on the pathway.

my child was the same way. I fought and fought when she was a baby to get is on an ‘acceptable’ sleep schedule. Then I realized that for whatever reason, her natural clock did not match. I accepted that we would go to bed a bit after midnight and get up at 10:30. She and I were both much happier.

she eventually outgrew it. We got her on a schedule that worked in plenty of time for school. In the meantime, she got the essential Rest needed to grow and stopped being so miserable all the time .

now my baby ended up getting an ASD diagnosis. Really difficult sleep patterns are one of the signs. My own parents absolutely struggled with me from birth, also ASD. They gave up trying to keep me on a normal schedule as well. I don’t recommend their solution of taking turns sleeping next to the baby sitting in a he playpen watching late night tv. They let me shift, but tried to stay on a normal schedule themselves.

Ds was the same.
It resolved naturally.
As he got older his afternoon nap slipped later and later in the day until it eventually "joined up" with his night time sleep, leaving him with an 8pm bedtime by the age of 3 or 4.

If it works for you and your dc is getting around 12 hours sleep then there’s no problem.

My dc were like this too. I remember their dad trying to get them to bed 7-8pm. But it was torture. So we let bedtime happen around 930pm and it worked well. Meant we could eat together as a family too.

Nip this in the bud now. My daughter was the same but it worked because I worked until 10 at night. I figured I'd stop it a couple months before she started school. It was hell. It's still hell and she's in year 8

If you did want to fix it, I'd do this. Day 1- wake 5.30am. Get up, get active e.g. exercise video. Get outside when light, to groups/soft play. Then nap 11.30-1pm. Then bed at 7pm. Next day should wake 7am for a more normal 12/24 hour routine. Personally, I would want to fix this before school as the melatonin surges and core body temp drops at wrong times of sleep cycles and late bedtimes can cause health risks later in life (see intro on this article). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5063046/

I'm disagree this is his natural pattern- and I assume it would take a week or probably more to adjust to a 'normal' routine. The fact that it's hard to get him up for activities in the morning would bother me.

We used to have this problem too. Me and my partner have problems getting to sleep and staying asleep and DD seems to have inherited it. When she was 2 if we put her to bed at 8pm she would then be awake at 4am! We go to sleep at 11pm and she now wakes up at 8-9am. This works for us as I can still get her to gymnastics etc by 11am. She used to force herself to stay awake until midnight and nothing would help; breastfeeding, music, rocking etc. I asked the health visitor and the GP and they couldn't really offer any help. We've always done bed time stories every night. A bath really helps but we couldn't do it each night when she was smaller (dry skin).

I’d wake him at 8am and then not let him nap. Mine didn’t nap past two years anyway. I couldn’t wait for mine to go to bed at 7pm so I had some adult time.

My toddlers go to bed around 9pm or sometimes 9:30. Wake up around 8:30/9. It’s great

I'd be bringing everything forward 15/30 mins a day until he's in bed for 7.

My son is 23 months and we start bedtime at 6.30. Asleep by 7, awake at 6. One hour nap after lunch.

My son is like this (he does have autism), he’s 7 now and his perfect schedule would be to sleep midnight-10am. He doesn’t go to school so fortunately he can indulge this pattern.

Honestly if it works for you, then what’s the issue. Plenty of parents have their kids in bed at 1900 (or god forbid earlier) and don’t even eat meals with them everyday, you could frame that as lazy and neglectful if you chose, after all the deleterious effects of lack of family meals are well known and having them in bed at 1900 just so you can spend some time alone/with your partner and ignore your child, I mean how selfish and lazy ;)

The truth is a variety of schedules serve different families, not every adult works 9-5, and these night owl kids may thrive later on the many weird schedule jobs that exist. School is a PITA for kids who don’t do early mornings and you may have to pick your clubs and groups carefully or like many night owl adults, your night owl kid may happily suck up the odd early morning to achieve a goal. There isn’t something inherently virtuous in early nights and early mornings. Nor does having a toddler in bed for 1900 make you a better (or tbf a worse) parent.

And that breast cancer article is fascinating.it suggests disrupting natural rhythms (by for example shoving night owl kids into bed at 7pm or indeed keeping up the early bird kids) increases health risks and in this study was shown to increase progression of breast cancer. So getting enough sleep at times that suit your biological rhythm is a key to good health.