I'm a Jewish Israeli, AMA

[israelilefty]

Jewish Israeli here. I grew up in a different country but have lived and worked most of my adult life here, living a fairly normal everyday life in northern Israel. When I'm not working, I enjoy cooking and hiking, I'm religiously observant (but also feminist), I'm on the left of the political spectrum, and have everyday contact with people from quite a range of different perspectives - Israeli society is incredibly diverse.

I guess I see us portrayed in a kind of monolithic way in the English-language media, so I'm taking a deep breath and posting here...

Feel free to AMA, just remember you're asking a real person, not a government or military spokesman :) I'll try to answer from my personal standpoint. as long as it's asked in good faith.

Maarvellous. I think you got your answer.

How are you doing OP?

Hi, @Yazzi and others. I’m really sorry I didn’t answer - I thought the thread had wound to a close so haven’t checked it for a while. I particularly appreciate hearing questions from someone coming from a very different perspective and I appreciate the careful wording and desire for conversation.

I’ll try to answer briefly as I think all the questions were more or less on the same topic. Briefly, those who were blocking aid convoys were a tiny minority of the far right, and they were doing so to support (a minority of) families of hostages who were very upset that aid was getting into Gaza when their son/daughter was not for example being visited by the Red Cross. This was not a mainstream position and they were removed by the security forces.

Likewise most Israelis were appalled by the killing of the WCK staff last week and it was the main story on the news for days and has led into renewed critique of the lax open fire policy in Gaza.

In general Israelis are sensitive to the plight of civilians in Gaza even though it is not reported in anything like the extent seen in the West. Israelis also see Hamas as significantly responsible for the destruction and humanitarian crisis because theY choose to fight from among/under the civilian population.

About the question “is it worth it” - this is not how Israelis see the conflict. More later, I have to get off the train…

Thank you, it's interesting to read your response already!

While Palestinians are also sad about the aid workers, their focus right now is what happened at Al Shifa Hospital last week. Hundreds executed at point blank range; doctors, patients and refugees amongst them. Women raped by Israeli soldiers in front of their whole families. Palestinian bodies bulldozed over and mutilated beyond all recognition. The centre point of medical care in north Gaza destroyed and burnt down for no reason. It's barely making the news in the West and so I suppose it probably isn't in Israel either.

Because that's an f-ing lie.

Continuing my previous questions: I'll preface the next post by saying that the destruction of human life and property in Gaza hurts me as a human being, and that I have participated in the large recent protests (and in not-so-recent ones) in favour of a ceasefire deal and the release of the hostages.

I want to try to give the best picture I can, however, about more general Israeli understandings of the conflict, six months on. Remember though that Israelis are hugely diverse. Israeli human rights organizations are petitioning the Israeli Supreme Court about aid to Gaza at the same time as other Israelis are pressing for an operation in Rafah. I'll also say that at the moment it's very clear 6 months into the war that things are changing dramatically, and it's not clear what the government and army's position and intentions actually are. For example, officially the war is still continuing but over the weekend more ground troops were removed from Gaza meaning that only one brigade is still operating there (as opposed to more than 20 at some points). The protests for the release of the hostages (which will involve Israel paying a high price) have ramped up very significantly in the last couple of weeks and have more or less joined forces with the restarted anti-government protests. So, that's some background.

How do Israelis see the war? First, most Israelis are still stuck to some extent in the 8th October. Lives have been turned upside down and still tens of thousands of Israelis are internally displaced, and many reservists are still away from home/jobs doing huge amounts of reserve duty. Probably even more significantly, 7 October caused huge collective trauma (which I've gone into in past posts) and the fact that well over a hundred hostages remain in Gaza and we know that their conditions are a living hell, is at the top of many Israelis' minds. There is no life as normal - life goes on, but there is a sense that everyone is going through the motions.

Second, Israelis' perspectives on the conflict are very different to Western ones. Most Israelis see this war as one in which there are no good options. The "day after" is not just a theoretical issue because it is happening right on our borders, within a couple of hours drive of most of our houses, not in some distant foreign land like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This war follows a huge defeat for Israel on 7 October, not simply in terms of the numbers killed, but in terms of Israel's vulnerability to the Iran-led axis. For Israelis, the stakes of this conflict are very high. Not because Hamas is right now in a position to repeat 7 October, but because if Hamas remains a significant military force in Gaza, this would be a huge victory for Hamas and a strengthening of the Iran-backed axis, much of which (Hizbullah, Iran) can do much more damage to Israel than Hamas. Israelis are also unwilling to go back to the status quo before October 7 of rounds of military conflict with Hamas every couple of years, because now we know that Hamas used the lulls in fighting to prepare for Oct 7, and because we know that no significant reconstruction can happen in Gaza until after Hamas is removed from power, because no international donors will agree to fund reconstruction until they know that there won;'t just be another round of conflict in which it's destroyed again.

This all goes to say, most Israelis have seen this as a war of no option, and it's only now that public discourse is strengthening around the idea that maybe it's time for a more comprehensive ceasefire deal. Most Israelis view the civilian casualties of the war as a regrettable but inevitable consequence of war generally, and specifically in this case of the war that Hamas brought upon itself, and of the way it has chosen to wage the war by effectively using civilians as human shields by fighting from tunnels under residential homes, in hospitals etc. On the left and in left wing newspapers there have been criticisms of a too-lax targeting policy which has led to the deaths of Gazan civilians, aid workers, and the 3 hostages who were mistakenly shot dead.

Regarding the famine and humanitarian aid: aside from the minority opinion I wrote about earlier of relatively small protests blocking aid, I would say that all Israelis understand the need for effective aid to Gaza, from a moral point of view or at the very least from a strategic point of view. It is also clear, in particular in recent days/weeks, that the major problem is the distribution of aid, not the actual amount getting into Gaza. Most Israelis see this as primarily a failure of agencies inside Gaza (and of Hamas and armed mobs for diverting and stealing aid), not as an Israeli failure, though again on the left there is criticism of insufficient planning to create the conditions for aid to be distributed. This is not a simple issue to solve but I think Israelis know that even aside from the moral imperative, providing aid effectively is a strategic imperative for Israel.

I hope that this answer helps give an overview of some of the ways in which Israelis see this conflict, 6 months on. I emphasise that still the overall sense of tragedy, no good options and trauma, fear and uncertainty for how things will develop is still very much part of the mood, even if everyday life has become more "regular" for most people.

I personally know people who were there. Including one who was executed. A teenager, totally uninvolved in Hamas. And the photos are all over the internet. And the testimonies.

But sure- anything Israel says is the truth and anything Palestinians say (or photograph, or video) is a lie.

Thanks Israel lefty. I'm glad to have heard this perspective.

I haven't seen credible evidence backing these claims, and if there were, it would certainly be all over Israeli left-wing news sources like +972, Haaretz etc. I hope that any credible claims will be properly investigated, and I really think that it's the job of investigative organizations and journalists to do this work, rather than for me to offer a comment on claims that haven't been reported in a verified way. I agree that it is shattering to see a hospital destroyed, and there is a sad irony that the hospital was both built and destroyed by Israel. Having said that, the Israeli narrative (which does seem to be backed by considerable evidence including evidence from the site and testimonies both of international medical workers and Hamas prisoners of war) is that al-Shifa long had dual use as a Hamas base, and while I'm shocked and dismayed to see a hospital destroyed, it also shocks and saddens me that Hamas callously endangers civilian infrastructure by appropriating it for military means. And Yazzi, I am sorry for your loss.

Hi,

Thank you very much for this brave and important thread!

I am a secular diaspora Jew (Ashkenazi) and only visited Israel once in my youth, which I loved. I still have distant relatives there but lost touch when the older generation died.

What worries me is the demographics of Israel seem to be changing with fewer educated European Jews emigrating and more fundamentalists from the U.S. Does this worry you? I always saw Israel as a moderate democracy and a potential refuge but I worry it is tilting towards a religious extremist position.

Would you stay in Israel if they failed to embrace the two state solution and decided to fully colonise Gaza?

This article from the Guardian includes the death toll of 400, plus the deaths of doctors and patients:

"Raed al-Nims, a spokesperson for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, the Palestinian branch of the humanitarian organisation the International Red Cross and Red Crescent, told Al Jazeera: “The situation is dire. The medical staff, some of them were killed, others tortured, others detained, and above all, they have been besieged for two weeks without any medical supplies or even food or water.”Nims added: “According to eyewitness accounts and official reports, many of the civilians were executed. They were killed by the Israeli occupation forces, including medical staff, doctors and nurses; they were purposefully executed by the Israeli soldiers.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/01/israeli-forces-withdraw-from-gaza-al-shifa-hospital-after-two-week-raid

Of course, if your (not specifically you Israel Lefty but generally) frame for "credible evidence" is "not Palestinians", then I suppose the Palestinian spokesperson for the Red Cross isn't credible.

While the claims of rape aren't being reported as the family don't want to go on the record because of the trauma and shame. As was exactly the case with Israeli families and women. But they are discussed widely amongst Palestinians.

Jewish immigration to Israel had a huge demographic impact during the early decades of the state but this is no longer the case - immigration numbers are dwarfed by the regular birth rate inside Israel. Also immigrants from Western Europe and the US are a tiny proportion of the total - most Jewish immigration to Israel is from the former Soviet Union. I think American Jewish immigrants are visible/audible to English speakers because they are of course involved in English speaking Israeli media, but really they are a not a very significant demographic within the country. Also yes some American Jewish immigrants identify with the religious right, but many others have been a significant force for the religious left, opening up liberal religious perspectives.

I can't really answer theoretical questions about "would I stay in Israel if...". Right now I don't see being in Israel as some kind of temporary move - this is where my life is and aside from the privilege of dual citizenship I don't have anything to "go back to" - my job, mortgage etc are here. But I think it's very unlikely that Israel will attempt any kind of sovereignty over Gaza, rebuilding settlements etc. Maybe a few on the messianic right have that position, but almost no Israelis would see that as a desirable or realistic position for very many reasons. Much as I would support it, I don't though see the two state solution happening on the near horizon. There isn't an Israeli leadership with a mandate for it, there certainly isn't a strong enough Palestinian leadership, and I think it will take a long time to build up any kind of trust between the sides. However I fervently hope that the "day after" this war will bring us closer to, rather than further from, a just and equitable solution to the conflict.

@Yazzi, once again, I hope that the claims you make are properly investigated. I'm not implying that Palestinian sources are not credible but rather that a serious investigation, like the ones that happened regarding sexual crimes on 7 October, establishes credibility by triangulating multiple perspectives and thus presents a strong demand for action. Independent investigations are important for Palestinians, but equally important for Israelis because serious breaches of the ethical code or firing regulations of the IDF need to have serious consequences.

Note that it does seem that the claims about rape at al-Shifa hospital have been retracted: https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-report-alleging-idf-rapes-in-shifa-hospital-retracted/

Hi OP good to see you back. Reading your posts with interest as usual :-). hope you have been keeping well.

i think everyone who is hoping for a ceasefire would also like thorough investigations. however, very hard for anything to be investigated as IDF does not allow anyone in including journalists (except for a few whose support/reporting is guaranteed)

it is common in this situations for rape allegations to be withdrawn by women generally and in Conservative societies in particular. sexual violence is known to have been occurring for decades. again proper investigation is needed 100%, but the IDF needs to let the relevant organisations in.

It's hard to have an investigation though, isn't it, without Israel allowing journalists and rights organisations into the country and the extreme danger to any independent journalists. I think that when the horrors of what Israel has enacted in Palestine are investigated properly, there will be a reckoning. Unfortunately far too late for the 13,000 children killed so far.

And that's a relief that the rape allegation turned out to be false, thanks for letting me know. There's so much trauma without it.

@therealcookiemonster @Yazzi Yes, I’m not denying the difficulty of investigations happening in real time. But they still can, even years later. I know it’s not satisfactory but that doesn’t diminish the importance.

It is difficult to describe the experience of life post 7.10. On one hand, little has materially changed. I go to work, pick up my kid, feed the cat, cook dinner etc. I am immensely fortunate to have what I need and to be physically safe. On the other hand, this weekend I was in a EU country for a couple of days for a work event. In the middle of the night the hotel fire alarm went off for 5 seconds. In the next 20 seconds I made it out of my room and down 3 flights of emergency stairs in my pyjamas, wondering all the while why there were windows on the staircase and if not the staircase, where was the shelter--before I woke up enough to realise that this wasn't the local sound for a rocket alert, because they don't have rocket alerts in that country. In other words, you can leave the war but the war doesn't leave you.

I am frustrated and angry about the lack of progress towards a resolution of the conflict and the return of the hostages. I feel powerless to make any real impact. I feel guilty that I can live a safe life in my own home with plenty of food when others close by can't. I feel deep concern and sometimes fear, both at what the day after will look like, both immediately and in the next few years, and also about the current inflation of the conflict with Hizbullah and Iran and the possibility that there may be very difficult days ahead. I feel sad and frustrated about the extreme polarisation in the ways that debates about the war have metamorphosed overseas. And I still feel grateful to be Israeli in ways that are difficult to explain but relate to the immense social solidarity that has been palpable since 7th Oct.

@MovingBird123 I echo your sentiments.

@israelilefty glad to see you back.

Yasser Abu Hilalah, Al Jazeera’s columnist and former director, tweeted, acknowledging the fabrication. “It was revealed through Hamas investigations that the story of the rape of women in Al-Shifa Hospital was fabricated… The woman who spoke about rape justified her exaggeration and incorrect talk by saying that the goal was to arouse the nation’s fervor and brotherhood,” wrote Abu Hilalah.
These revelations have added complexity to an already convoluted narrative surrounding the conflict between Israel and Hamas. The initial report had generated significant outrage and panic, leading to some Gazans fleeing their homes. Jihad Khelles, a pro-Hamas preacher in Gaza, commented on the negative impact of the false report, stating that it “creates panic and fear” and induces “despair and frustration” among Palestinians.

@stomachamelon yes, that's what I posted earlier. But please, let's stick to the AMA of the thread rather than raking over previous posts, especially since the previous poster already acknowledged that the rape allegation was retracted. There are a million places on the internet where anyone who wants to can have an endless tit for tat debating this claim or the other...

Sorry. Apologies.