I'm a Church of England parish priest - AMA

[whyhere]

Baptisms, weddings, funerals, Sunday worship, belief in general - I'm at your service 🙂

They are a vicar.
It was a Sunday.

The likelihood is that they had an 8am service (approx an hour depending on whether there's communion) and another at 9.30 or 10am (approx an hour or more) possibly another late morning as well - and perhaps an evensong service atm say 6.30pm. In between the morning and evening services they might be taking communion to people at home who can't make it to church, visiting people in hospital and are always 'on call' to visit people who have just had a bereavement, for example. Plus at some point, they have to have a bite to eat, go to the loo...
Unless you've lived in a vicarage and/or personally know clergy then you really have no idea how much work they do 24/7. (Yes, they are on call overnight too)

I prefer to focus on present-day saints (the Bible tells us that all Christian believers are 'the saints') than those who have gone before, although we of course celebrate each saint on their designated day. I meet so many good people who are dealing with the most adverse circumstances in their lives and yet still hold fast to their faith and put others first.

Bearing in mind how many Christian denominations there are, I don't see unification as likely, sadly. However, I believe we should remember just how much there is that we share, rather than concentrating on the things that divide.

I don't understand why you would even imagine that I might defend child abuse....

The reality is that we can find bad people in all areas of life - the Church has no insurance policy against this, and it is certainly hugely shocking and painful when it takes place within an organisation that should be all about love and security.

I'm so sorry about the death of your parents; somehow this time of year makes bereavement feel even worse.

I also love the two carols you mention.

Exactly so 🙂

I just want to add that while perpetrators are often quite deliberate and manipulative in their attempt to gain access to children, many church people were, for a long time, horribly naive about child abuse. They imagined that because Mr X seemed like a lovely guy and they’d known him for ever, he could be trusted with anyone and everything. And while that usually was true, it occasionally isn’t, with horrendous consequences.

Hence, all the mainstream churches at least now have robust Safeguarding policies and procedures in place. In my own (Methodist) Church, references and DBS checks are required for the vast majority of roles, as is Safeguarding training, which has to be repeated at regular intervals. If the prescribed processes are followed, the opportunity for abuse will be extremely limited. Failure to follow the prescribed processes is in itself a Safeguarding concern. Any concerns have to be reported to the Safeguarding Officer of the relevant body, who will follow them up.

None of that makes up for the failures of the past, or can heal the damage done to victims/survivors. But I hope it shows that churches are learning from that experience.

And you wouldn’t believe just how much aggro ministers and safeguarding officers receive when they pick people up on breaches of policy, remind them they have to do the training etc.

Everything you state, around training and policy, is certainly also true for today's Church of England.

How true to life is The Vicar of Dibley @whyhere ?😉

Oh hang on… well you seemed to ignore my posts on this.

I know for a fact that you can’t be assured there are child abusers in any sector of society but it does seem strange (and certainly in the case I’m mentioning) that various church people and music and singing people attached to the church had access to young boys and carried out sexual abuse. This is by no means a rare case either.

I do think the church could and should do more to prevent this. Generally it’s accepted that the Catholic Church was more guilty (and it probably still is) in condoning or brushing under the carpet sexual abuse of minors. I personally think there should be more of a stance towards not covering up any misbehaviours. I can’t say too much here as it’s outing but it’s one of the reasons my friend left her job as she was disgusted at the cover ups by the Church of England.

Don’t be so naive. I know of at least 2 people involved in safeguarding for dioceses and one was sacked as she messed up in her role.

Yes, there probably is less abuse carried out but it still happens and is still covered up.

How I laughed when she got pregnant by her singing teacher at 15/16 and had to leave the convent in disgrace to have the baby. The father didn’t want to marry her…

That's awful. How can you declare you did this so openly in posts condemning the church for child abuse?

She was little more than a child herself and abused by her teacher, then condemned and shamed by her school and peers.

Not something to be proud of.

@GonnaGetGoingReturns

Don’t be so naive. I know of at least 2 people involved in safeguarding for dioceses and one was sacked as she messed up in her role.

Doesn’t the fact that they were sacked show that Safeguarding is taken seriously? People mess up - it happens. It’s what happens when that comes to light that matters.

Yes, there probably is less abuse carried out but it still happens and is still covered up.

I didn’t say it doesn’t still happen, nor that the church is now perfect in its response. I do believe it is better than it once was, because now there is a coherent set of policies. In the past is was very much left up to individuals to decide what to do.

The same can be said of many other organisations, including schools, children’s homes, youth organisations.

But the one person who was sacked has since got another safeguarding position elsewhere.

I agree with your reasoning re other organisations but you can’t deny that many of these including religious organisations brush it under the carpet. My friend who works for a Catholic diocese knows sexual abuse still happens but again, it’s too much of a rabbit hole for her to go down and she’d probably never work again if she brought into the public domain.

@GonnaGetGoingReturns at least she doesn't laugh about it

@GonnaGetGoingReturns

But the one person who was sacked has since got another safeguarding position elsewhere.

I would say that was a failure of due diligence by the second organisation.

I agree with your reasoning re other organisations but you can’t deny that many of these including religious organisations brush it under the carpet.

I don’t have inside knowledge about how common it is for abuse still to be covered up. I hope it is much less common than it once was.

I was musing yesterday about why someone in authority might cover up abuse. I can think of 3 reasons:

1. They are complicit, because they are also abusers
2. They care too much about the reputation of the organisation
3. They are naive about the perpetrator’s expression of remorse and assurances that they won’t do it again. So they decide they can keep a good worker by moving them somewhere else.

I think churches are particularly vulnerable to 3, because of the teaching about repentance and forgiveness. And that could well be why abusers have sought positions in churches….. you do realise that would-be abusers gravitate towards organisations and roles which will bring them into contact with children?

Safeguarding training should effectively address 2 and 3. We have it drummed into us, time and time again, that all concerns must be reported. The procedures for handling someone with a known history of offending are extremely robust - they will not be allowed to hold any sort of office in the Methodist Church, ever. There should be nobody in a senior position in any organisation who still believes that their organisation is more important than protecting vulnerable people, or that people who have the inclination to abuse children should ever be allowed in positions where they have unfettered access to them.

So if you’re going to tell me that it still happens and is still covered up, then I’m going to tell you that what is needed there is the oxygen of publicity. Because the official policies say it should most definitely NOT be covered up, and everyone in a position of authority now knows this.

My friend who works for a Catholic diocese knows sexual abuse still happens but again, it’s too much of a rabbit hole for her to go down and she’d probably never work again if she brought into the public domain.

Now that is truly shocking. Each and every concern should be reported through the church’s own processes, of course. But we were always told that we could also report independently to police or social services. That could kick off an investigation by those organisations, without the informant’s identity being made known.

But I am deeply shocked by the statement that bringing abuse to light would mean your friend would never work again. In my experience, it would be the opposite - someone who was found to have known of abuse and not reported it would be subject to disciplinary proceedings.

I’m sorry this has got so long. My summary is: churches have made huge mistakes in the past; there is so much more awareness now than there used to be, and policies in place both to make it harder for abuse to happen via church involvement, and to respond effectively when something comes to light. But we still need to do better - no argument there.

a few questions if that’s ok!

what was your training like?
do you have a family and if so how does your vocation affect them (it must be so odd to have your home be a semi “public” area if that makes sense?)
do you get holidays?
were you very involved in your church prior to becoming a priest?
do you find people tend to be very well behaved around you?

Thanks for your questions.

what was your training like? It was a three-year theology degree course at a residential theological college, and was both wonderful and very challenging.

do you have a family and if so how does your vocation affect them (it must be so odd to have your home be a semi “public” area if that makes sense?)
do you get holidays? It was particular tough on the children when they were young, having to leave their home and move to college with me. I always keep the public parts and the private parts of the house very separate. We get 6 weeks holiday a year, which sounds a lot, until you factor in that we get only one day off a week and are on call 24 hours a day for the rest of the time. (An average working week for me is about 80 hours, and I'm by no means unusual.)

were you very involved in your church prior to becoming a priest? Yes; I was a regular member and a pastoral worker.

do you find people tend to be very well behaved around you? That was the case a decade or so ago, but not any longer. I think that programmes like Rev and the VofD have given people a more realistic picture of what clergy are like.

I really am not lying here re my friend. However, her employment straddles both CofE and Catholic religions and they’ve both bullied her. In theory she could take action against them but I do think she wouldn’t work in religion again and it’s a big part of her life.

In her current diocese, yes, sexual abuse is tackled, prevented but it still goes on as she’s told me! I can’t say how I know what I know as it’d be outing for her but trust me there’s still lots of coverups happening and distinctly dodgy and unwise people being exposed to children but because everyone is so woke these days it is brushed off.

I do think you’re right though, in churches generally there’s less chances of sexual abuse happening as safeguarding is doing its job. And that’s how it should be. But don’t be complacent.

Thank you for this lovely thread, and the work you do.

I am Christian, and attend traditional C of E services on an ad hoc basis. Have also attended various groups ie Alpha, bible talks etc. I gain great comfort from it and have met some lovely people.

The church services I attend are always so very poorly attended; a handful of people maybe rattling around in a big old church. And I am always about thirty years younger than all of the other people attending. This makes me sad, as did the recent news about the Census displaying falling rates of those stating they are Christian in the UK. I was also very sad indeed to read your prediction upthread that separation of Church and State is "inevitable"...

I'm not quite sure what can be done about this, especially because I like to worship quietly and not evangelize or attend a more happy clappy style church.

What do you think about this problem?

@GonnaGetGoingReturns it never occurred to me that your friend was lying about her experiences. It’s more a question of, what needs to be done to change the situation, and by whom?

As for complacency - I hope I’m not that. I’m no longer in a position which puts me in the front line, but I was for enough years to have been through the training repeatedly, and to have used it as well.

Thank you @whyhere for this thread, and for all that you do.

I hear the call, but am too cowardly to follow it right now.

I attend a high church CofE church, was married from there and both my DC have attended since they were born. But DH has no faith at all, and his family are actively anti-church, they refused to attend both children's baptisms and DH's grandparents haven't spoken to us since we got married (10+ years), because we got married in my church. I was so proud of DH for standing up to his family, and saying that whilst where we had our wedding didn't matter to him, it really did matter to me.

2 years ago, I felt such despair, and an complete outsider to the situation suggested our Junior Church. Once a month now, I lead our Junior Church, and it brings such joy.

Hopefully, in the future, I will be able to look into becoming a lay preacher. It's a long pathway though.

No real questions, just wanted to unburdened. I'm sure you get lots of that!

Thank you for your kind words.

I think the point you raise has been covered a couple of times upthread (I appreciate there's a lot to read!) but, in essence, I think the main reasons for the lower attendance at churches these days are:
the hierarchy believes that evangelical churches are where growth will come from so prioritises those over the more traditional ones, meaning that resources (both human and otherwise) aren't shared equally;
the Covid effect;
the disparity between the law of the land and Canon Law (specifically equal marriage);
the lack of good teaching around science and religion being complementary rather than in opposition.

Thank you for your kind words.

I'm sure you're not being cowardly - everything happens in its right time. Have you thought about talking to your Diocesan Director of Ordinands? Your parish priest can put you in touch.

Thanks @whyhere for continuing to answer questions on this thread.

I find the idea that science and religion are in opposition interesting, in part because I am a scientist by training and encountered God a bit later on.

The question I have, if you don't mind me asking, is whether you have an opinion on the Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer (this project)?

I think it's fascinating, and anything that makes people think more about prayer has to be a good thing.