I worked at a Russell Group university for 10 years in widening participation / recruitment / admissions.

[AngerIsAnEnergy]

Have a decent insight into this, working with academics and administrators in many subjects, student support services etc.

AMA.

As broad advice I say yes it does matter and is worth putting effort in.

Of course they get only skimmed quickly at certain stages as it is such high volume work and any admissions person will tell you you go slowly mad reading 10000s of versions on a theme over the years so it is hard for them to stand out, not much different to job applications.
It is a filtering process. They get the applicants, take out the ineligible ones on subject, grades, qual type, then look at grades more, then read the statements and so on.

For things like maths or computer science they will be slightly less important there is really is all about grades, even down to % scored in particular exam papers.

For things like law, classic, history- of course they are massively important. These are written subjects and they want to see if you can write.

I used to say 'look they are horrible things to have to write, horrible things to have to read in volume, but you have to do it and here is how to do it well.' And that it is prep for future job apps.

I still remember a sample personal statement for ancient history i used to use as a model. I said to the student, 'bloody hell, this is one of the best things I've ever read!' she was like, yeah. its the hardest I ever worked on a piece of writing. I was beautiful!

I think the essence of the issue is in the last line 'at the moment it feels like they will get binned ....'

It might feel like it, but it is not true. No schools (of whatever type) are on a 'no way - bin them' list. (Which I assume might be illegal anyway? I am not a lawyer..).

Private schools students are not excluded from elite universities - you only need to look at admissions data to see that. It is just that there has been a relatively recent shift away from private school students having such a dominant representation at these institutions, relevant to their proportion in the wider population, because of things like government and institutional policy, pressure to take action on social mobility and so on. And I think this feels alarming to the private school community.

I am genuinely not trying to be antagonistic, because I do understand how fraught and emotional this is for all parents whatever background.

I am not sure if you read all the previous posts but I think the best summary is the FT article I linked to earlier. The fact is the apps per place have gone up massively since the 1980s, so it is more competitive.

Quite a lot of unis pretty much do do what you said above, to some extent. They publish their entry requirements, and if they have a lower contextual offer they publish the information and do not keep it secret. They do not publish a third, higher, entry criteria for privates as you suggest, because that is making an already complex system more complex, the basic entry requirements are already so high, and I guess there is no research evidence that this would be a useful intervention.

I worked with, not in, admissions teams but as I understood it works - you get tonnes of apps, you remove the clear ineligibles (wrong subjects, wrong qualification type, predicted grades too low, very short / badly written rubbishy statements). Then you work with the eligibles; ranking by predicted grades, personal statement quality, teacher references and also considering WP criteria (which include school type but many other factors) in the mix.

I know that is not what you want to hear. I am sure you are doing the absolute best for your children, and hopefully their school is too, and they most likely will get a good university place, whether or not it is their top choice. If they have great grades, a great statement and so on there is no reason to think they shouldn't apply or wont get a fair consideration.

It is a volume problem. some of courses have 40 apps per place, so of course they are going to reject strong applicants who would do well on the course, it is a finite number of places. And some of those rejected applicants will be from private schools too.

Thanks for the response @AngerIsAnEnergy

Thank you @AngerIsAnEnergy

Do you believe in aliens on a distant planet and if so what do you think they may look like?

Also if you do, do you think they will be in our own galaxy or elsewhere in the universe?

if you don’t believe in aliens, then which is your favourite Swiss cheese?

I wonder how well the WP criteria are decided and targeted. Dd's friend got a place at an RG uni (offer, reduced grades and financial awards) despite having a parent who is a doctor and are quite comfortable financially with university educated siblings. Their school is on the WP list as comprehensive and live in a WP post code (not planned as have lived there for quite some time).

This is the kind of thing I was referring to in my earlier post which I have also seen happening in my wider local area. I don't have any problem with WP criteria being applied, so long as they are done thoroughly, but it does seem that in some cases there is just a blanket application based on postcode.

Near us there is a very expensive new gated housing development which was built on land bordering a 'deprived' area which is now being gradually upgraded. They share the majority of a postcode. The local sixth form college is in a leafy suburb surrounded by £1.5m houses, but some students travel in from very deprived areas up to 10 miles north.
The Head of the college apparently proudly announced to parents at the open evening that since their catchment area included a number of WP eligible postcodes, in fact ALL students at the college would be eligible for WP offers.

Parents from the two local independent schools now switch their kids to the college for 6th form to both save money and give them a better chance of uni success. It's just crazy!

It sounds as if the OP does a very thorough committed job in identifying eligible students, but this really isn't always the case!

I’m an academic at a decent uni, and before that worked at an RG university, and I do a lot of WP work. In fact, I run a programme that I invented (and have thus been accused of doing “feminised labour” associated with student experience and caring). Weird situation that I had: from a single parent family, first to go to university, but also got into a private school with a scholarship, and later played lacrosse and had horses. I would never send my child to a private school. I went to an incredibly academic school and it was damaging. I work in a lot of brilliant state schools (and ones that are not so) and can see that their pupils are much happier than I ever was.

If people are anxious about their privately-educated child being disadvantaged, there’s an easy solution: send them to a local school and pour your considerable resources (cultural, monetary, and intellectual) into the local school. However, our admissions don’t actually discriminate in that manner and only make contextual offers where that context has been evidenced.

@Notanotherusernamenow that is interesting input.

It is a useful response and a genuine question: yes if you are concerned about potential discrimination, surely send kids to state school?

It is a similar framing a friend of mine uses when she meets people who complain about teachers: how they have it easy, such long holidays, lazy, anyone can do it. She says - Well there's a teacher shortage. Why don't you apply?

However that response doesn't really answer / help for parents whose children have already gone to / through private school and are just about to apply.

There is another form of class gap of course within state schools. Kids from low income houses alongside middle class kids whose parents who can pay for tutors, enrichment activities, foreign holidays and so on. Posy simmonds was drawing cartoons about this back in the 1980s. This is why I think the multiple assessment points matter.

Thank you to everyone who contributed from all viewpoints, it was a really interesting thread and challenged me to reflect on some of my ideas and framing. I think I will wrap it up for now.

One final observation is that it is always hard to design a broad, fair, workable policy system to assess complex individual situations. There will always be a degree of imperfection.

There are similarities between our discussion here and conversations about claiming disability benefits.
How do you 'prove' you 'deserve' something, how much 'proof' is enough, and do you end up spending more in staff time assessing proof than actually goes out in payments (or in making university offers?)
What actual evidence is there for how much people do try to game or defraud these systems (I don't know the data for false benefit claimants, or for fraudulent student finance applications, but it would be an interesting comparison).

Unis could require more criteria and evidence to meet WP criteria, but assessment always cost money in staffing. Someone has to look at and verify all the criteria. You could get into interviewing teachers, kids, parents, GPs, or requiring more evidence and documentation to be completely sure about accuracy, but is this the best use of scarce resources? It is then also becomes an onerous and stigmatising process for the exact students you want to support.

Just postcode plus school for eligibility is quite a blunt approach, and will lead to individual outcomes that could be unfair, as pointed out above by @Whippet .

However those two simple, easy to verify, and apply, criteria will be cheap and fast to implement, and will have a bigger collective impact on the class diversity of the whole student year group intake that more detailed and complex criteria. So I can see why universities do it.

Good luck to all applicants and parents and their supporters, and thank you to the academic colleagues for all that you do.

Does the admissions team look at the names of the applicants?

i was so conscious of giving my DC names that ‘looked good on paper’ 😬

Of course we don’t worry about names! I’ve taught young people from all backgrounds, some of whom have come from the toughest backgrounds, and a few (though they are rarer) who have come from failing schools. I have taught young people with some very out-there names (Tiger-Lily for eg), names they have changed, names that are considered “not posh” (Plenty of Conors, a few Skylas, etc etc. and surprisingly few traditionally posh names like Georgina or Edward). I am not mentioning traditionally non-white names as they sit outside of this specific question of class. Suffice to say, we have a quite diverse intake, although something of a gender bias across our whole intake.

However, I do think certain name biases kick in early. I have never taught a Jayden or a Kayden in 15 years but here’s the thing: I teach the Arts and Humanities at a top university. I suspect that from nursery to primary and into secondary, boys with that name will already likely have been treated a certain way and won’t have been encouraged towards a love of reading literature and creative writing, or a love of art, or to debate philosophical arguments.

But the problem is so much more multifaceted than that, as that suggests it’s teachers who are responsible for producing these outcomes, which I don’t agree with. The vast majority of teachers I know and with whom I work are passionate about improving the life chances of all their pupils. Many of them face burn out from trying to work in (or against) a system and a society that ingrains educational and social injustice from the start. Admittedly, they do also have to deal with some obstructive parents - eg ones who don’t want their kids to have extra opportunities because “it’s pointless” (either because they want their kids out to work with them, or because they think their child is non-academic, or because they were traumatised or let down by the education system themselves), or they don’t see the point in their children visiting a university with school. Or bigger issues of addiction, incarceration or abuse is affecting the family.

Largely, socioeconomic factors beyond what the school can deal with are the main issues. It’s systemic. Aspiration, self confidence and a sense of a future beyond the immediate are hard for any young person to grasp and internalise, especially teen boys: hence the struggle to make teens of all classes revise for GCSES, but the difference is that, as a PhD student, middle-class parents would pay me to tutor their children and essentially babysit their boys. I dropped my rates for people from a non-traditional backgrounds, but tutor culture is overwhelmingly MC. I had one parent pay me to spend 6 hours a day making her teen boy work over Easter and she was paying £30k per year to a boarding school. I now run A funded tutoring scheme to give young people who have been most left behind access to undergraduate and postgraduate tutors (not the bloody awful National Tutoring scheme).

However, if a young person is living in an environment of low employment and likely high crime, never leaving their area - some children never travel more than 5 miles from their home their whole lives; with some city children, that can shrink to 2.5 miles and there are children in London who have never seen the sea, or the night sky without light pollution - when your world is so small and life is a massive struggle, how can you imagine something beyond your current existence?

So no, names don’t matter on university applications. However, they are both a symptom and (perhaps) a small cause of why children with certain names never even make an application for my subject at the level and location of university at which I work.

This blog from an academic at the LSE is excellent: blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/british-education-still-selecting-and-rejecting-in-order-to-rear-an-elite/

Forgive the subject/ object agreement grammar fail in my previous post, and any other errors. I do know what I’m doing, I promise, but typing on a phone does not promote accuracy and there’s no edit button…

Excellent post @Notanotherusernamenow I also work in same area and recognise all that you say. Universities seem to be expected to right all of the embedded social and educational inequality in our society. It’s frustrating. We do what we can, but the problem needs to be addressed meaningfully so much earlier/ more widely.

DD went to Private Secondary with a part scholarship and then State 6th form as he school doesnt have one. Will she be treated the same as other Private school DC with regards to her application do you know?
Additionally she has been told that due to our postcode she has been highlighted as being from a deprived background (which is actually ridiculous but they wont change it) so will that give her any advantage when applying?
Before anyone tells me its outrageous that she is getting this advantage I do know and have had many conversations with her Tutor about it but apparently its down to postcode and nothing else changes that.

I work in professional services at an RG university. I have worked with our WP team on various projects. In our case, anyone at a state school is considered for the WP schemes we run. I don't know what it means for admissions. I was astonished at this when I first heard it. It means I would have been considered WP and I had a pretty standard middle class upbringing, my parents both went to university and had professional jobs, and I went to grammar school, detached house, foreign holidays and all of that. Not that WP was a thing back when I went to university, but it absolutely shouldn't be meant for the likes of me. The university I work for does have an on average extremely wealthy student body though, so perhaps it is all relative.

I’m confused about the postcode and school thing. Is there some National database or does each university does it’s own calculations? I think in principle it’s a good idea but I wonder how current some of the conclusions drawn will be.

No idea
DD as told when she began 6th form college that she was on this pathway. When she questioned it she was told it was because she had either had free school meals (nope), neither parent went to university (we did) or she was from an area of deprivation (nice 4 bed detached houses populated by teachers, Accountants etc). I queried it because I thought it must be a mistake but I was told no it wasn’t but not to worry as “nobody would find out” - which really wasn’t my concern.
My neighbour (teacher) said one of her DC got extra UCAS points because of it and has a provisional place at Cambridge now
Its ridiculous but as I can’t change it we can only take advantage of it

https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk/data-and-analysis/young-participation-by-area/search-by-postcode/

Or some use

https://www.fscbiodiversity.uk/imd/

Postcodes aren't always used though!

We are bottom 20% according to that, which is absolutely ridiculous

Agree!

a calm and very informed thread, thank you

Oh it throws out some very odd anomalies I know! It's a broad brush. POLAR for example is a measure of HE participation of 18 year olds - quite easy to work out how many in the numerator, but the denominator is child benefit records, so an area with a transient population where fewer claim CB has an artificially high participation rate. London for example - participation is undoubtedly higher than the rest of the country, but there are only about 3 postcodes in the entirety of London in the bottom polar quintile!

IMD (index of multiple deprivation) on the other hand is just as bonkers for London. Live in a nice mews house in Paddington - your IMD is also the poorest! Council estate in Romford - much nicer apparently!

Why did you fail to answer endless emails and phone calls from my daughter regarding post graduate support?

Why does your university brag so much about previous, now famous, students but fail to offer any support post grad?

Why do you still believe that RG unis are the only uni to attend... you frequently give talks at High Schools but mostly at Grammar Schools where you actually tell students that certain subjects carry so much more weight yet are actually useless in our society?

Why did my other child, who didn't go to an RG uni , and neither did any of his friends all go on to amazing careers earning great salaries, whereas my daughter, and her Grammar School cohort end up at RG /Oxbridge unis but have since moved on to jobs that could easily be done by non uni folk, earning minimum wage with few prospects.

@WishILivedInThrushGreen I am not sure at whom that is directed. Each university has its own welfare support. Some places are better than others; some are very poor at it. Whom was she emailing? Student welfare, admissions or her academic tutors? Why - What was the nature of her issue? Was she trying to apply or struggling whilst doing PG study? Some universities are very much hands-off and there’s a belief that students should just get on with it, which was absolutely my experience and I chose that deliberately; others are very nurturing and involved. post-92 and non-RG tend to do better in the TEF (teaching excellence framework) which means they are likely more student centred and have more industry connections.

But university is also what you make of it. I missed out on so many things going on at university because I didn’t know what was possible or what I could join in. I really did just attend my classes and play sport obsessively, thinking university was supposed to be like school. I wish there had been more guidance on how to make the most of university and what was available, as I had no one in my family to advise me. I was also quite depressed and dealing with an eating disorder and then discovered partying, all of which meant that I didn’t take up the many activities on offer at my RG uni that would have made getting a high-paying job easier: industry-related societies, volunteering, work placements, year abroad, etc etc. Fortunately, I am extremely bright and became an academic, but otherwise I don’t know what I would have done!

if you’re suggesting she did an Arts and Hums degree, looking at my own friends who went comp/grammar > Arts and Hums at an RG > work, I have a classicist friend (studied extremely dead people, and very ancient history and philosophy, with a bit of beginners Latin) and now makes mega bucks in PR. A whole bunch did Modern History and are all in high paying city jobs. English Lit grad friends are now in law, journalism, teaching, media and communications and one runs HR for a FTSE 200 company. I’m one of the poorer ones as an academic, but still earn a healthy amount: I earn a bit more than secondary teachers. One old uni friend even went and set up her own evangelical church. Another works in shipping with an English degree.

I have one friend (another classicist) who has made very little with her life, bouncing from minimum wage job to minimum wage job and moving all over the place. But funnily enough, she went to boarding school and inherited quite a lot of money in her 20s that she burned through travelling. However, she is an unhappy soul and has not yet, in her 30s, worked out who she is or what she wants to do or be. She’s been involved in all kinds of start ups. Her parents are kind and let her come home each time, but they don’t really know what to do. They feel the money didn’t help, but it wasn’t theirs to give, and the situation is not about money but about mental health that money just exacerbated.

The above is all anecdotal, but really one could consider them case studies in where RG might take you. However, I have many friends, and my own students now, who were/are at non-RG and are also mega successful. There are also those who consider their success not in monetary terms but in fulfilment, happiness, meaning - some students of mine have gone on to do amazing things in the Arts and charity sector, and some earn very little, but they are brilliant and happy and I’m really proud of them. I probably could have earned mega bucks going into the Big Four 15+,years ago, but I’m really glad I went the way I did. I earn medium bucks rather than mega ones, and for a long time was extremely poor and exploited. I also know those who are not happy and fulfilled and are also underpaid. Life is tough for young people. A mix of luck, good health, and self confidence are further factors, and that is part of what makes graduate life unfair.

RG is not a magic ticket to success. It might open doors, but it isn’t guaranteed. There’s often better teaching and support at non-RG although that is changing. The independently wealthy universities aka Oxbridge are not under the same pressure to measure graduate destinations, which is now linked to funding and viability of courses, so they may be slightly less active in that area.

if your daughter is interested in PG study, she could look at doing something more directly career related. If she has a 2:1 in a traditional degree subject from an RG university, she will be able to get into most programmes at other unis. Career services should also still work with her at her alma mater. A law conversion course or a business-orientated MA might suit her? She might also be struggling because a lot of very bright girls fall apart at some point under the burden of their perfectionism, which leads to self sabotage or inertia, and Covid will only have exacerbated any such feelings. It happened to me in my 20s, and I know a fair number of academics (male and female, to be fair) who are like that during their whole careers. It’s a very common thing that the less academically sparkling end up the most successful, as they tend to be less riven with self-doubt and anxiety, although this is, of course, a generalisation. In my own cohort, the two with a 2:2 and a third have gone on to become the wealthiest. They are very driven and very competitive sports people and that translated well into the macho industries they entered and they accelerated very quickly. The one with a third set up his own business very early on.

Some independent career counselling (not uni-provided) might help your daughter find her way and get back on track? Going and working with recruiters to help find her a position would also be advisable.

It is a really tough time to be a graduate right now, and I feel very sorry for young people dealing with the impact of Covid and the economy. I hope she finds her way.

@AngerIsAnEnergy

Have you heard of the Villiers Park scheme and does it help with uni admissions? My son has been invited to join them but I'm not sure if it's a good idea.