I worked at a Russell Group university for 10 years in widening participation / recruitment / admissions.

[AngerIsAnEnergy]

Have a decent insight into this, working with academics and administrators in many subjects, student support services etc.

AMA.

Hi OP, I'm an academic at a Russell Group uni with a relatively high proportion of former private school pupils (although this is slowly decreasing). My impression (which may be wrong) is that there is a lot of focus on increasing application rates from students from deprived backgrounds but maybe not so much focus on addressing the higher drop out rates of students from those backgrounds once they are at uni. What do you think?

FWIW I'm state educated, first in family to go to uni. I actually applied to be a student at the uni I now work at and within a few minutes of being there for my interview (which included a tour of facilities etc) I decided it wasn't for me. 20+ years later I still wouldn't want to be a student from my background here, but I do like it as a place to work.

Yes it's a sod of a stat to find because the eye catching 7% figure drowns everything out - and it's an appropriate comparator for some things, like budgets, but not for others like "how many MPs were privately educated" or "how many Russell Group students came from private schools".

Last time I found them the figures were around 13% for secondary schools and 20% for sixth forms/A levels - (there's a discussion to be had about which of those is the appropriate benchmark) - but I think I might need to find the raw data and calculate the figures which will take a while (important to exclude overseas students as well).

I don't have skin in the game, and I genuinely agree with what you're saying - I just hate faulty use of stats.

I have been reading on here about supra curricular and not extra curricular
Is that the case?

My dc1 is state educated and on FSM but not first generation to go to uni, do these things "count" anywhere?

He'll be assessed against the income of the household he lives in - so yours and your dh's, not his parents if he doesn't live with them.

If you're receiving a foster care allowance, or if he was previously looked after by the LA he could qualify as looked after in which case he'll get the full loan and should get extra support at uni.

What a fascinating thread. I work at a Post-92 (having studied years ago at a very stereotypically "private school" uni) and a lot of what you say resonates, OP.

I think that's wrong. I googled this because I was interested and everything I saw said that "parents" means parents only, not whoever you happen to live with.

In theory occasional contact with one parent would mean that you need to be assessed on their income, and if they don't cooperate then you're only eligible for a minimum loan, but it looks like there is some discretion about being counted as "estranged".
www.standalone.org.uk/guides/student-guide/

Thanks for that, no fostering allowance as outside agencies weren't involved.

Do you know if they would count non taxable disability benefits, my husband is disabled so that bumps our income up a bit.

It is stressful as I don't think his parents will contribute anything so I suppose it will be down to us.

That's good advice actually Portia - although as he's living with grandparents the SLC may count that as the household to be assessed as - but yes certainly worth testing if he could be considered estranged - I'm not sure of the required evidence but if school are aware they could help?

Otherwise it's taxable household income you are assessed on, so certain benefits are excluded.

@ancientgran it looks like you've got some advice from @titchy and @PortiaFimbriata already. I never really grasped all the complexities of how student finance england assess the household income. There are so many different situations as your post demonstrates.

I think you should contact SFE (or the equivalent if not in england) and ask to speak to an advisor. If you cant get through and are comfortable with social media you could message on twitter, facebook etc as they have social accounts.
www.gov.uk/contact-student-finance-england

if you can't get through you could contact the student finance advice team at a university he is interested in going to, and ask for advice.
I had colleagues who were student finance advisors and they were happy to speak to prospective students as well as current students.

I am glad Stand Alone were already mentioned, they are a really interesting small charity that have done lots of campaigning for estranged students. Basically their point is that there is a lot of support for care leavers (whose legal parents are the local authority) - as is right - but kids who are estranged fall through the gaps.
It is very hard to prove estrangement as it is messy and complex, so you have young people with no support or money from parents being told they cannot prove they are estranged and so wont be assessed as being independent from their parents. The founder is an interesting woman. They do support groups and stuff as well as campaigning.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/dec/15/becca-bland-estranged-parents
www.beccabland.com/my-story
www.standalone.org.uk/media/

Glad you are enjoying! I am finding it therapeutic I think as still processing having left the sector.

I had not heard the term supra curricular so I googled it.

It looks a lot like the advice I would give young people in personal statement sessions. Basically to do stuff that demonstrates love of the subject outwith the A level curriculum. EG for a history student, not just doing what is in the course but reading about other historical periods, going to all the free museums and historical sites near you and so on.

State school and FSM are both widening participation criteria so it might make him eligible for a WP summer school for example, and possibly for contextual admissions. But it varies a lot between different universities, different WP programmes and courses so you would need to check this.

When I started, I felt that the focus in our team was all high volume, 'get loads of them to apply'. it felt that the actual admissions decisions were out of our hands once they did apply, we were a bit disconnected from admissions team and admissions tutors. And yes, it seemed a bit - 'well lets see how they do with the standard support package once they are, we cant treat them differently'. We had no projects to specifically support WP students, just the standard stuff for everyone.

In recent years there has been more discussion and focus on drop out rates, investment in setting up student success teams and so on. It is now a measure that the office for students look at when they review universities' access agreements.

Students do need this support, it is the emotional social part of making friends etc when you perhaps dont feel you belong, as much as the academic support.

Students are amazing in supporting each other - they come in to fill the void left by the institutions.

ACSs - african caribbean societies - around the country - do incredible stuff in building community and looking out for each other. the Oxford ACS have run their own WP projects for example. Here is a great book by two young black women who studied at Cambridge about their experiences. 'Taking up space: the black girls manifesto for change'.
www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/15/chelsea-kwakye-and-ore-ogunbiyi-taking-up-space-merky-books-interview

Some students are setting up their own first in family / working class societies.

It is interesting what you say about working in the university but not wanting to be a student there, can you say more?
there are some associations for working class academics, what do you think about it?
workingclass-academics.co.uk/
www.workingclassacademics.com/

I've read some interviews with academics saying it was harder to be 'out' as working class than it was to be 'out' as gay. And of course accents, clothes and stuff can change so people dont 'read' as working class.
www.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/09/lawyer-wants-academics-come-out-as-working-class

Interesting thread!

’About 6 - 7 % of the UK population goes to private schools. If there were no bias against either school type you would expect to see a roughly proportional representation in the intake for a university.’

Don’t think that assertion is valid: all other variables would need to be the same, which isn’t the case.

Eg closer to 20% of pupils take A levels at private schools, 18 per cent of A-level students are in private schools, many select based on entry tests and/or GCSE grades). and %s of getting certain A level grades.

@FlemCandango

At Warwick, at least, the need for scribes, extra time and separate rooms are all catered for and nothing unusual.

This link may be helpful, if you haven’t seen it already.

warwick.ac.uk/services/wss/

@AngerIsAnEnergy
does the uni you go to really matter more than the grade?

my dd has turned down offers from RG to go to a “lower” uni because she preferred the course content. She is very happy with her choice and I can’t see any reason why she won’t get a good grade (her a level mocks were A,A,A* - she’s incredibly bright), but as someone who didn’t take the university route, I don’t quite know how it works after uni and will future employers look down her on application because she hasn’t gone to the best?

@titchy @PortiaFimbriata @AngerIsAnEnergy Thank you all for the information, it is terribly complicated isn't it and hard to find the information. I think I will leave it till after the summer as I'm sure everyone is busy with the next intake of students.

His sixth form know he is living with me but they don't know anything about the circumstances as it all happened before he started sixth form, his old school knew there were issues but weren't supportive and the final incident was after he left. I wish I'd called the police when it finally kicked off but he was traumatised enough and begged us not to.

Hindsight it great isn't it.

@ancientgran If he does wants to try and prove estrangement when the time comes then he'd need a letter from a trusted independent third party like a teacher, so worth thinking about confiding in one of them. Good luck.
www.ucas.com/finance/student-finance-england/finance-independent-students

Thank you, next year sounds like fun.

I went to my local university back in the day, which was an RG university. I had been to a large comprehensive school. I got the same good grades, in fact often better, as anyone else on the course. When at the university, I was astonished to see the vast majority of people had gone to private schools, or grammar schools - I’d never met anyone from a private school or grammar before. Also, many, many on my course had applied to Oxford or Cambridge. Applying to Oxbridge had never occurred to me, and certainly hadn’t been mentioned by my school. Do you think schools should be doing more?

Thanks for this thread.

My son would love to go to a RG uni and is predicted 2 A stars (have to write "star" as the star doesn't show!) and 1 B. His offer is three A's - not points. If he gets what he is predicted is he likely to be ruled out straightaway?

The subject he would like to study is A star and the other A star is a facilitating subject too. The B is in a pretty much unrelated subject. He has great references (apparently) from the department of the subject he would like to study.

I know you can't discuss individual RG admission policies, but he really is unlikely to get an A in the third subject and I just wondered if despite two A stars he will likely automatically be ruled out as part of the initial sifting process? The course is oversubscribed.

Thank you

I would echo your post snowiscold

My husband was an A grade student , first for degree and PhD educated

He is from Scotland and a regular comp type school . It never occurred to him to apply for Oxford or Cambridge

Kids like him, and me never think we can go to these unis

Bizarrely I ended up doing a Masters At Durham but never knew it was held in such high esteem until my daughter has started looking 😃🤣

Working class kids are disadvantaged 😞

I’m obviously not the OP, Hayberry, but it sounds as if your son was not well advised on his A Level choices. Why was he allowed to take a subject he wasn’t going to do brilliantly in? And why ‘unrelated’?

If he’s certain of his degree subject choice, and determined to get there … I guess the OP will have a better range of options than I might.

Prefacing this by saying I dropped out of a rough state school at 16 due to a chronic illness. I managed to go to university in the mid 00s.

I'm concerned that some of the things to widen participation actually worsen prospects for the disadvantaged. For example, turning a blind eye to poor literacy, or allowing constant extensions.

In my career, I've sometimes trained postgrad students (usually well off) with no disabilities who can barely send an email or speak on the phone. Terrible spelling and grammar.

This is one of the reasons jobs have introduced so many assessments pre-offer, as degrees now don't mean the person is capable.

If an applicant was first in their family to go to university, came from a low socioeconomic postcode, and was on free school meals applied to an RG university but was on a bursary to attend private school, would the former criteria outweigh the latter in terms of consideration/favourable offer?