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AMA

I worked at a Russell Group university for 10 years in widening participation / recruitment / admissions.

125 replies

AngerIsAnEnergy · 26/05/2022 08:34

Have a decent insight into this, working with academics and administrators in many subjects, student support services etc.

AMA.

OP posts:
Flockameanie · 26/05/2022 13:59

Flammkuchen · 26/05/2022 12:15

You seem to say that ‘meritocratic’ is bad, but I would have considered that WP is meritocratic - i.e. that WP students are there on merit.

google the ‘myth of meritocracy’. Eg here www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/19/the-myth-of-meritocracy-who-really-gets-what-they-deserve

Flockameanie · 26/05/2022 14:01

Thanks for this thread OP. I’m an academic (not a snobby or particularly opinionated one!) but this is something I feel is so important. The ‘then who should get to go’ is such a great question/response to the blithering about ‘too many people going to university these days’ brigade

Mia85 · 26/05/2022 14:12

Do you do anything to verify the information, especially postcodes? I am thinking about the amount of effort that some people go to get the 'right' address for school admissions and the ways in which local authorities will investigate and rescind places for fraud. Surely there's potential for something similar to happen in contextual admissions and for applicants to rent somewhere in a low participation etc neighbourhood for the purposes of admissions. Given that the actual application all takes place online presumably they wouldn't even have to go there to check the post. Do you do anything to prevent people gaming the system in this kind of way and do you think it is a risk that this might happen as contextual data becomes even more important?

SendARavenToRiverRun · 26/05/2022 14:13

Interesting thread OP. Thank you.

My DC is currently y12 and at college. The course she's doing won't give enough ucas points for anything at uni we don't think ( massively poor career advice plus parents who are out of our depth).

The uni that DD is interested have a WP category. Dd is adamant that she won't be aiming to use it. She doesn't want people to think she's poor or thick ( we're poor, but she's definitely not thick!).

Would she be entered automatically into the category? (hopefully giving her chance to get in and do a foundation year). Our postcode and her former school qualify her for it.
Many thanks.

Whippet · 26/05/2022 14:20

What % of students admitted under WP programmes do you think are 'genuine' cases vs. children of middle classes playing the system? What checks are carried out e.g. family income, school history etc?

I ask because locally I have seen a lot of abuse of a system in which very well-heeled children from middle class families with £200k p a incomes and £1.5m+ houses use a local sixth form college as 'stepping stone' for contextual offers as it happens to draw on a very diverse local area.

AngerIsAnEnergy · 26/05/2022 16:08

SendARavenToRiverRun · 26/05/2022 14:13

Interesting thread OP. Thank you.

My DC is currently y12 and at college. The course she's doing won't give enough ucas points for anything at uni we don't think ( massively poor career advice plus parents who are out of our depth).

The uni that DD is interested have a WP category. Dd is adamant that she won't be aiming to use it. She doesn't want people to think she's poor or thick ( we're poor, but she's definitely not thick!).

Would she be entered automatically into the category? (hopefully giving her chance to get in and do a foundation year). Our postcode and her former school qualify her for it.
Many thanks.

some unis will do the WP contextual admissions flagging automatically (ie without the students knowing) but not all.

I would really encourage her to use the WP policy / scheme. It is not about being thick! it is about levelling the playing field, slightly. It is FOR people like her.

Also if it helps her thinking about it, no one will 'know' that she came in via a WP route, its not something her course-mates or tutors would know. The admissions staff would know and maybe her personal tutor.

OP posts:
SendARavenToRiverRun · 26/05/2022 16:10

AngerIsAnEnergy · 26/05/2022 16:08

some unis will do the WP contextual admissions flagging automatically (ie without the students knowing) but not all.

I would really encourage her to use the WP policy / scheme. It is not about being thick! it is about levelling the playing field, slightly. It is FOR people like her.

Also if it helps her thinking about it, no one will 'know' that she came in via a WP route, its not something her course-mates or tutors would know. The admissions staff would know and maybe her personal tutor.

That's really helpful. Thank you. I'll show her your reply.

AngerIsAnEnergy · 26/05/2022 17:12

There are a few questions about merit of WP students and testing whether they are genuine or fake, so I will try to cover these in a bundle.

For all the WP secondary school programmes I ran - things like summer schools and evening courses for years 10-13 - they were all picked through really detailed process and some of our programmes had 100s of applicants.
So almost as competitive as uni applications. We assessed on multiple social factors, never just relying on just one criteria. Which school, home postcode, FSM, what do your parents do for jobs, teacher reference etc.

We then also assessed on academics - predicted grades, short statements, teacher reference. These were really really smart young people, much smarter than me. I worked with them for years and saw them in action in the classrooms, giving presentations etc, really clever. I was blown away by some of the them. The WP students I met were not 'thick' or less deserving of a place than middle class / private school students.

The 'proof' was mainly reliant on teacher references for example confirming that they were on free school meals or that neither mum or dad went to uni.
I dont think many people 'faked' their WP credentials and it would be hard for us to spot if they did, but the teacher ref was a decent validation. Also this is only for a short summer school type thing, its not as high stakes as a whole degree.

Assessing WP criteria for actual university admissions is higher stakes than for the summer schools. For contextual admissions universities rely on evidence from UCAS, student finance england and the schools. So if a teacher gives a reference they will confirm any relevant WP details about the student that they had access and permission to comment on, and we would accept UCAS and SFE data (about their educational history and finances) as valid as they will have their own checks in place.

For things like disability or care leavers or estranged students, admissions teams ask for evidence like a letter from a GP or local authority.

University don't just get applications with an unverified 'sob story' and take it at face value and give someone a place. And believe me admissions officers hear loads of unverified sob stories - it can be a very hard job and thankless, a bit like being in a call centre sometimes taking abuse from angry teachers / parents / students. They get shouted at, cried at and offered bribes.

@Whippet "What % of students admitted under WP programmes do you think are 'genuine' cases vs. children of middle classes playing the system? What checks are carried out e.g. family income, school history etc?
I ask because locally I have seen a lot of abuse of a system in which very well-heeled children from middle class families with £200k p a incomes and £1.5m+ houses use a local sixth form college as 'stepping stone' for contextual offers as it happens to draw on a very diverse local area."

for first question see my comments above.

For the second example you give: its hard to comment on this really without you being more specific about what is going on.

I suppose some wealthy families might put their child in a 'contextual' type school hoping it helps. It would only 'help' if a contextual admissions programme in a university only took the school attended as their single piece of evidence, and didn't also look at any other measures like Free school meals, ethnicity, parental income and occupation. In my experience it wouldn't guarantee anything very much so it seems a bit of an odd thing to do to me.

OP posts:
BalloonSlayer · 26/05/2022 17:16

@FlemCandango has your DS applied for the Disabled Students' Allowance.

It comes with support sessions etc, it was really useful.

Whippet · 26/05/2022 17:52

@AngerIsAnEnergy It's hard for me to be specific without risking outing myself. However if you take a look at Bristol Uni's contextual offer information for example they clearly state that:
"You will be eligible for a contextual offer if you are applying from an aspiring state school or college" and they provide a list of those they define as such:
www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/study/documents/Aspiring%20State%20Schools%20and%20Colleges%20for%202022%20cycle%20England%20and%20Wales.pdf

However some of those schools are in very wealthy leafy suburbs and a minority % of students (not enough to bring the average down) are from very wealthy, in no way under-priviledged families - parents who are dentists, cardiologists, university professors etc. And yet I can confirm that ALL students received contextual offers where there was a system like Bristol's in place. So presumably it's a very blunt tool and sometimes there isn't the deeper level of checking of 'need' and eligibility that you describe?

RoseWindow · 26/05/2022 17:55

What can we do as parents when our kids are at schools that don’t have any clue when it comes to advising our kids on how to apply, where to apply, ideas of what to study that aren’t just their A level subjects etc. It’s so daunting. Where should we start?

Whippet · 26/05/2022 18:17

RoseWindow · 26/05/2022 17:55

What can we do as parents when our kids are at schools that don’t have any clue when it comes to advising our kids on how to apply, where to apply, ideas of what to study that aren’t just their A level subjects etc. It’s so daunting. Where should we start?

There is lots of helpful advice about the process on the UCAS website and also people here on MN who have been through it all can help!

Are there schools that aren't doing ANYTHING for their L6 students though? I would've thought most schools & colleges for 17/18 year olds would offer some advice. Are you sure it's just that your DC doesn't communicate about it? DS swore blind there was no UCAS coaching, but it turned out he didn't want to go to it as it clashed with the times he went to the gym!

WhatHaveIFound · 26/05/2022 20:06

AngerIsAnEnergy · 26/05/2022 10:10

I am hesitant about individual case advice as I left the sector before pandemic and am not up to date.
I would get as much as advice as possible from GP, his school and maybe look for info on UCAS.
He could pause his studies and retake A levels perhaps?
I am not sure I've got more advice for you but there will be lots of students in his position and so much disruption from pandemic.
I hope he gets better and things improve.

Thanks. At the moment he's just ploughing on, adamant he doesn't want to restart A levels as he wants to stay with his current year group/friends. We have a meeting at school after half term and i'm keeping all the documentation from the GP/Long Covid clinic.

It would help if he knew what he wanted to do next. Maybe a year off after 6th form and a chance for his health to improve might not be a bad idea.

AngerIsAnEnergy · 27/05/2022 09:53

RoseWindow · 26/05/2022 17:55

What can we do as parents when our kids are at schools that don’t have any clue when it comes to advising our kids on how to apply, where to apply, ideas of what to study that aren’t just their A level subjects etc. It’s so daunting. Where should we start?

I understand. It is really hard as there is so much info and hysteria about it online, so hard to know what to trust.

It is especially hard for parents who have not been to uni themselves / dont have access to those middle class and professional networks.

Universities will offer parents info session on open days, HE fairs and on WP activities.

I recommend Martin Lewis for student finance explanation: clear, unbiased, informative.

UCAS 90 second guides for parents.

Russell Group informed choices website is good.

My personal advice is that the university name is often more important than the subject studied in the UK for careers. Lots of employers are biased and will recruit only Russell Group for example. So an anthropology grad from a RG might well have better outcomes than a business degree from a less elite university for example. I don't think this is fair or right but I think it is how it is.

When talking to kids parents and teachers I saw a huge focus on limited number of degrees: Medicine, Law, Economics, Business, Architecture, a couple other big name subjects. This was really strong in WP students. I think there is an understandable fear of doing a degree that doesn't sound immediately and obviously employable, especially if you are first in family and its a big financial risk.

However these degrees are also the most saturated with applicants. There are many fantastic degree subjects at Russell Groups and other unis that don't sound so 'obvious', but are great disciplines and highly employable. Some of them are a bit less competitive in terms of grades and apps per place (not all of them - Biomedical sciences had as many apps per place as medicine sometimes).

If I could do my own university time over I think I would look at a multidisciplinary or joint honours degree, some of them are really exciting. And i would do a sandwich year in industry or a year abroad.

OP posts:
AngerIsAnEnergy · 27/05/2022 10:32

Whippet · 26/05/2022 17:52

@AngerIsAnEnergy It's hard for me to be specific without risking outing myself. However if you take a look at Bristol Uni's contextual offer information for example they clearly state that:
"You will be eligible for a contextual offer if you are applying from an aspiring state school or college" and they provide a list of those they define as such:
www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/study/documents/Aspiring%20State%20Schools%20and%20Colleges%20for%202022%20cycle%20England%20and%20Wales.pdf

However some of those schools are in very wealthy leafy suburbs and a minority % of students (not enough to bring the average down) are from very wealthy, in no way under-priviledged families - parents who are dentists, cardiologists, university professors etc. And yet I can confirm that ALL students received contextual offers where there was a system like Bristol's in place. So presumably it's a very blunt tool and sometimes there isn't the deeper level of checking of 'need' and eligibility that you describe?

I would like to respond to the questions about whether Russell Groups are biased against private schools and whether these day private school students are unfairly losing out. In my view they are not.

I've seen many threads in MN HE forum saying this. This belief is part of the reason I started this thread. However, I don't know that there is much I can say to convince parents who believe this, as it seems to be a very deeply held sense of being wronged.

About 6 - 7 % of the UK population goes to private schools. If there were no bias against either school type you would expect to see a roughly proportional representation in the intake for a university. However, here's the data for Oxford, in 2021 68% of the Oxford intake was state school. So private schools account for about 32% of the Oxford intake. So you can easily see they are still significantly more likely to get in relative to their proportion of the UK population, from 7% to 32%.

That's before you consider that 'state school' is very broad, and includes grammar or selective entry schools with students from mostly middle class and professional families, or great schools in areas with high house prices, to under-resourced schools serving the most disadvantaged communities in our country. That 68% intake isn't all 'WP' students by any means! They will be a small proportion of it. State school does not equal disadvantaged, it is just one crude measure that is easy to report on as a broad indicator.

I think there are a few things going on here. Private school parents want and expect return on their investment. The schools sell themselves as pathways to elite universities. So it is a natural expectation that has built up over the years, and an anger when it doesn't work out as expected.

It is uncomfortable to think that perhaps someone else was just that little bit more brilliant than your child, or it was an unlucky day at interview for your child and they fluffed it, or that all the interview coaching, fees and expensive extra curricular clubs have not paid off.

There has been big investment and research into widening participation, good practice and the policy evidence base over past 10-20 years. And we are starting to see a gradual impact in the Russell Group intake. Look again at that Oxford page above and you see in 2017 that 58% of the intake was state school, so it has gone up quite a bit by 2021 with 68%. I think this figure partially represents the effort that universities and schools have put into widening participation, developing contextual admissions policies and refining their processes to remove bias where they can. And private schools and parents have noticed this so they feel angry.

It is often framed (not in this thread but I've seen this approximate wording) as one private student pitted against a WP student and thus unfairly losing out on a 'rightful' place to someone who got in by a back door / sob story or however you want to phrase it. I really want to push back on this feeling that anyone had a 'right' to anything because of the fees they paid.

The WP students I worked with didn't feel they had a 'right' to a place. A lot of the work was building their confidence and reassuring that they had as much right to apply, and if they got in, to attend and take up space, as anyone else. Some of them were very grateful and overwhelmed just to be considered.

Also: admissions doesn't work like that, just comparing 2 individual candidates. It is a high volume process. You get loads of applications; you weed out the completely ineligible ones. The WP students may get a 'flag' against their application for additional consideration, but everyone is being assessed in one big pool. It is a large complex filtering process.

It is just as likely that any one private school student 'lost out' to another private school student, or grammar school student, or a middle class state student, or an international student - any of whom may have had better results, statements, interview or test performance - as it is that they 'lost out' to a WP student.

OP posts:
AngerIsAnEnergy · 27/05/2022 10:34

Sorry @Whippet I hadn't meant to quote you in that response.

I can't really comment on the Bristol criteria as I didn't work there or work closely with them enough to know how they structured.

My personal view is that you need multiple measures to get a full picture for contextual admissions, and that only going on the school is not nuanced enough (for the reasons outlined in your example). Most contextual admissions policies I had seen had at least 2 criteria to be met.

OP posts:
AngerIsAnEnergy · 27/05/2022 10:38

This is a great article that summarising the private school / elite university debate better than my post.

"Sam Lucy, an archeologist who specialises in Roman and Anglo-Saxon Britain, has served as an admissions tutor at Cambridge since 2009. She has little truck with parents who claim their children are getting the short end of the stick. “Nobody is entitled to get into Cambridge. You have to earn your place by being serious about your subject and going above and beyond the school curriculum. No one should expect to get in, but if they do, they will have deserved it.”

Now director of admissions, Lucy has been asked so many times why smart students are getting turned down that she carries a chart that illustrates what has changed. Since 1981, annual applications to Cambridge have risen from just under 5,000 to 20,426 last year.

Highly selective state sixth forms such as Harris Westminster and Brampton Manor in London have sprung up, partly to prepare children from disadvantaged backgrounds for Oxbridge and other top universities. They not only produce students with high exam scores and impressive essays, but also train them for interviews, an area where posh schools have long excelled.

In 2021, 55 students at Brampton Manor secured conditional Oxbridge offers, exceeding Eton’s 48; most have ethnic minority backgrounds, receive free school meals or were the first in their family to apply for university. Cambridge and Oxford have also had a big increase in overseas applications.

Meanwhile, the two universities, which promise small group teaching by dons and rooms in ancient stone quadrangles, have not expanded appreciably. That means it is roughly four times harder now to get one of the 6,800 places than it was when today’s parents were applying. “That’s the mismatch in expectations. Parents say, ‘I got in and you are as clever as me. Why haven’t they made you an offer?’” Lucy says.

Outside the wealthiest sections of British society, the main critique of Oxbridge admissions is about too little inclusion, not too much. Some Cambridge colleges failed to admit a single black student between 2012 and 2016, and most state-sector students historically came from selective grammar schools or wealthy areas."

There it is.

OP posts:
PortiaFimbriata · 27/05/2022 11:07

I'm sure you're doing excellent work OP, and I'm not denying for a moment the fact that some pupils at private schools and elite grammars are gaining places at top unis which bright children at less pushy schools are missing out at.

But you're overstating the situation hugely by using the "7% go to private school" factoid. That's the figure for all school children of all ages, including reception age where hardly any children go private. The appropriate figure is surely the percentage of children who are privately educated at the point of entry to university - which is about 20% IIRC.

So yes, they're overrepresented in many universities, and work needs doing, but it would be unreasonable to aim for 7%.

AngerIsAnEnergy · 27/05/2022 11:17

PortiaFimbriata · 27/05/2022 11:07

I'm sure you're doing excellent work OP, and I'm not denying for a moment the fact that some pupils at private schools and elite grammars are gaining places at top unis which bright children at less pushy schools are missing out at.

But you're overstating the situation hugely by using the "7% go to private school" factoid. That's the figure for all school children of all ages, including reception age where hardly any children go private. The appropriate figure is surely the percentage of children who are privately educated at the point of entry to university - which is about 20% IIRC.

So yes, they're overrepresented in many universities, and work needs doing, but it would be unreasonable to aim for 7%.

Mmm. I couldnt pin down the % of private school at 6th form education figure - can you send me link for the the 20% source if you have it?

There's still a strong favourable differential between 20% and that 32% intake for Oxford.

There's also the point that private school kids are more likely to apply for uni, esp elite universities, and there are good students in schools where the culture of the school, their family and their neighbourhood doesnt encourage applying to university. It is already an inherent advantage.

OP posts:
Mia85 · 27/05/2022 12:38

The other point is that, as the page you linked to shows, around a quarter of the students getting top grades are at independent schools www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/school-type once you put that in you can see that the differential is not really 7% vs 32% but around 26% vs 32%. You can also see that the table on that link shows that each school type as roughly the same success rate: about 20% of applicants get an offer.
Of course the risk of focusing on increasing state school places alone is that you end up taking the most privileged state pupils. If you go further into the data you can see that Oxford has worked on being much more targetted www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxford/AnnualAdmissionsStatisticalReport2022.pdf see page 11, you can see that students from the most socially disadvantaged postcodes have higher representation at Oxford than would be expected from the proportion of top grades from those postcodes.

carefullycourageous · 27/05/2022 13:06

AngerIsAnEnergy · 26/05/2022 09:50

Interesting, I do agree with the patronising.

It can be a bit cringey at times for example having a bunch of white, earnest middle class student ambassadors and WP staff (which also described me to be honest) going into a school serving mostly black / asian and working class communities and giving talks about uni life. I tried to be very thoughtful about how I came across in my practice, and to be very rigorous in how I picked and trained my student reps. Some of them were phemenonal in engaging young people and I did see them becoming more diverse in my time at the uni.

There is more discussion of classism and accent bias at university. my job was focused on 'getting them in' and less on what happens when they are in. there is a shift to 'success support' which is more about this.
accentbiasbritain.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Accent-Bias-Britain-Report-2020.pdf
There's still massive snobbery racism and classism that students experience. I dont like it. Good book:
www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/14/respectable-by-lynsey-hanley-review-class

There is a real 'deficit mindset' thing that I want to see shift. That a WP student will 'struggle more' and basically needs to be taught how to become middle class, not that the institution needs to change.

Your final para is close to what I feel is the position - they want the WC students to change i.e. become more MC, rather than for unis (or society) to actually value WC people for themselves.

AngerIsAnEnergy · 27/05/2022 14:33

carefullycourageous · 27/05/2022 13:06

Your final para is close to what I feel is the position - they want the WC students to change i.e. become more MC, rather than for unis (or society) to actually value WC people for themselves.

Agree with you. I had conversations with uni students explaining how their accent changed while they were at university so they could fit in and how weird and awful that made them feel.
I have a good friend from a working class family who went to Cambridge and she still struggles with the identity aspects of it all. not fitting in either place. Lynsay hanley's book respectable is very good on this.

These are my broader musings on the whole topic that are less about the technicalities of the system.

I think there's a difficulty for students whose parents paid for an expensive private school who didn't 'achieve' and 'deliver' as expected. Being made to feel useless if you didn't produce the top degree and top career. Have seen this in a friend of mine.

And the same feeling again of failure and wasted potential from OxBridge grads who didn't get a flash career, and feeling like people judge them for wasting potential.

I think the years of doing WP, and also disability work, made me quite angry with this cut throat, systematic brutal framework and culture in the UK and globally.

That you can only measure a person's worth by strings of A*s, Firsts from best unis, high paying jobs, then maybe an MBA, and so on, and no time out for mental or physical health or even just personal enjoyment and pleasure is acceptable. There is no tolerance of failure even though failure is how we develop learn and progress. More and more and more - where does it end?
This book really spoke to me.
www.waterstones.com/book/cant-even/anne-helen-petersen/9781529112283

I think a lot of the anxiety about admissions is about perceived resource scarcity and fear of falling out of the middle class (someone is going to get an advantage over me and mine, I must fight back with all the money connections and evidence I can muster).

It is an unpleasant way to see the world and very bad for our mental health but I do not know the solution.

OP posts:
ancientgran · 27/05/2022 14:38

AngerIsAnEnergy · 26/05/2022 09:38

Good for him and for you supporting him. I didn't work at those unis so can't speak to their quality of disability support but I would suggest he contacts their disability support teams now / does online research and gets a sense of what support they would give him. It could be a factor in which institution would be the best fit for him.
There is a lot more awareness about neurodiversity and autism at the moment. there may be student union disability reps and societies he can join.

He has a right to reasonable adjustments under the equality act. Generally universities are slightly better at supporting their disabled students than supporting their disabled staff (sad but true).

When he knows for sure which he is going to, he should get in touch w student disability team early for an appointment to explore the support and get adjustments put in place.
My colleagues in student support said the sooner they had contact and case information the better job they can do of supporting. He shouldn't wait.

Also he may well need to speak to people himself, it may be that you cannot do it as his parent. Good luck to him!

Hope neither of you mind me poking my nose in. One of mine did maths at Warwick, they were paid to note take for a student doing the same course who needed the support (I don't know what the issue was) Actually it was good for my child as well, they told me their own notes improved as they were doing the best job they could for the other student. Not to mention the money..........

ancientgran · 27/05/2022 14:43

Can you give me some advice about a finance issue, I'd be very grateful.

I have 17 year old GS living with me, he has no contact with one parent and sees the other maybe every 3 months. They do give me some money, below CMS rates.

Will he need to submit the finances from me and my husband for student finance, or one of his parents and their new partners or will there be something else. I can't find the information.

Also there is no social services involvement but would he be entitled to any other support?

Many thanks in advance.

DorotheaDiamond · 27/05/2022 14:44

Do you think there's a need for more foundation years? I agree that someone who has got 3Bs by themselves has done better than someone who gets 3 As from a private, but I would imagine that they are still missing a huge chunk of knowledge in their subjects (particularly the science/maths) - which surely is going to filter through to how they do in their degree.