I’m a secret millennial TERF in academia. AMA

[RealityNotEssentialism]

Well, I should preface by saying that I consider TERF to be a slur but I am gender-critical and believe that women are entitled to sex-based protections because it is sex that determines that women are treated differently to men. I of course support trans people having legal protections against discrimination but not at women’s expense.

I work in academia. Most of my colleagues are woker than woke. Many have pronouns in their email signature and bios. Because I’m fairly young, people tend to assume that I agree with the woke mob too when nothing could be further from the truth. I can’t come out though as my career would be over. It can be frustrating and lonely and I have to bite my lip when colleagues tell me that ‘TERFS should be fired’ and similar. I am tolerant of different views but it’s very clear that this doesn’t run both ways for those who disagree with me. It’s odd being told (albeit indirectly) constantly that I am hateful and a threat to people’s safety. I can’t abandon logic and truth though. I just can’t. To vent, I used to run a secret anon twitter account but I shut it down because I was worried about the lengths that TRA doxxers go to.

Feel free to AMA.

This same rhetoric of 'what harm does it do' 'its only a word' comes up again and again and I do get it, possibly a few years ago I might have thought something similar, before I really began to look into the issues and understand what was going on.

Ask yourself why there are sex-based protections in place for women.

Why do we need sex-specific spaces such as women's refuges and psychiatric wards? We need them for safety.

Why do we have single sex changing spaces? Safety, and dignity

Why do we have legal protection for pregnant women and new mothers? Because they continue to be discriminated against in the workplace

Why do we have the equal pay act, that still hasn't brought about equal pay in 40 odd years? Because women continue to be discriminated against in the workplace.

These are just a few small examples of women needing extra legal and physical protections in place. To eradicate the concept of women as a particular class is to ride roughshod over these hard-fought and very, very necessary protections.

You keep talking about hate. The hate streams one way and that is from TRAs to anyone who dares to even think about questioning them. It's really frightening that women's rights, liberties, freedoms, protections and very existence is being removed all in the name of inclusion.

There is no hate towards transpeople on these boards. There really isn't. Thinking that stating biological facts and fighting for women's rights is hate is totally warped.

Join the free speech union. Speak up. Even in little ways, even if you have to be sneaky about it. It will make a difference. If you don't, you're part of the problem.

It's horrible that it's at this point but it is now a case of you either stand against it or you are standing for it. You are young and in time to come may find that not standing against this creeping fascism will be seen as moral cowardice. Because it is. Either way, you have to reckon with your conscience. Its not fair that you should have to risk your career but there it is. This is the world we live in now, so decide who you want to be.

[quote Doublebubblebubble]@WaltzingBetty
What have I got wrong? this is an AMA on mumsnet of all places, not a dissertation.

It's strange but I wasn't expecting to be attacked for using actual terf language. Kind of blew my mind a bit.

a good friend of mine is m2f (and my cousin is also m2f transitioning - pre op) and she regularly gets told by terfs and bigots that she isnt a woman because she can not have a baby, regularly. It breaks my heart for her, and more selfishly because when I saw a couple of the delightful "messages" she had recieved, I had just had a miscarriage. It was unbelievably hurtful for both of us.

Not trying to be funny but surely there have to be some differences of opinion, whether simple or long winded, on this thread otherwise this just turns into a boring old echo chamber, right? Or maybe y'all want it to just be a thread full of "I'm right because this group confirms it."

I don't know?

You also didnt need to be quite so aggressive with your disagreement either, it is possible to agree to disagree and still speak to people, and about people, with respect.

My stance is that m2f people are actual human beings and women who should be afforded the same rights that all of us as women have fought for.
There is no harm in including them. And it is more harmful for women to exclude them.

Terfism is an issue because you use the language, legal and social power of feminism; not to fight for the rights of all women AND equality, which is true feminism; but instead to attack the idea that trans women being legitimate in the eyes of the law damages cis women. It just makes us look ridiculously petty and childish too.

You're a woman who wants to be a man, fine, come on in. (I've yet to see a terf be anti f2m).

You're a man who wants to be a woman,

HoW DaRE YoU!!

-Only cis women are women.

-Only cis women can do x, y, z.

-Our safe space is being infiltrated by men!!

-If youre a woman prove it.

Terfs also influence the ignorance of men in power and governments in order to pit one group against another.
"Cis women are better than trans-women because..."

It turns into a tier, or more disturbingly, a caste system for human beings. We shouldn't be doing this, It's 2020.

some terfs believe that trans women are women but that the just shouldnt be given the same rights as us. That makes no sense. No sense at all.

A common strategy among people who happen to be in a minority of their own, like women, is infighting. Togetherness can be built upon. Hate always leads to more hate.

I know I AM going to get hate for this but I have lgbtq people in my life who I love (2 trans people, a gay MIL, and gay friends and colleagues who I respect and admire) as human beings, so I am an ally, you can call me a hippy if you want because I am. I'm as left wing liberal as they come. I want peace and love and respect for all. Hate is what I dont understand. The trans people in my life don't want to or mean to harm to anyone, especially women, they were just simply born in the wrong body. It hurts my heart that people are so hateful for completely surface issues. All they want to do is live their lives as themselves.

I have a dd and a ds and if either one of them came out to me as trans I'd support them 100%. I'd fight equally hard for them to have the same rights too.

My question to terfs is; lets say law changes so that trans women can be classed as "mother" on a birth/adoption certificate for example.

why does that matter? What difference does it make? Who does that hurt?

(The challenge for you here is to try not to say "women" as your answer because a word on a piece of paper doesn't hurt women. It simply hurts egos)[/quote]
Please point out where I attacked you, was aggressive or disrespectful? Those are serious and personal accusations.

You are the one throwing the slur TERF around, and equating the gender critical feminists that I assume you're referring to with bigots.

You'd only need to spend about 5 minutes in the feminism boarding MN to educate yourself on the many and clear differences.

Also you're right it's not a dissertation, you may want to rethink the length of your posts

• My question to terfs is; lets say law changes so that trans women can be classed as "mother" on a birth/adoption certificate for example.
  why does that matter? What difference does it make? Who does that hurt?*

Setting aside that I don't identify as the derogatory slur you keep insisting on using, the answer here is 'the child' because it muddies the water of that child's biological heritage, which is why the courts will not allow this. The birth certificate is a legal and biological document of the child's identity, not an affirmation of the
Parent's gender. The terms mother and father are legally important for the child. Parents shouldn't be looking to use their child's legal documentation for their own agenda.

It also harms 'science and society' because it ignores the biological reality that only a male and a female gamete can result in a blastocyst

It a similar way, ignoring biological sex based differences is harmful to trans people. It reduces their ability to access sex-appropriate screening and means their biological predispositions to disease may be overlooked. Biology may be uncomfortable for some but from a science and health perspective it matters and denying it doesn't make that any less true.

My stance is that m2f people are actual human beings and women who should be afforded the same rights that all of us as women have fought for.

They do. Like absolutely every other person, they have the right to use toilets, changing rooms and facilities allocated to their sex.
They have all of the same human rights which all other humans do.

Anything in addition to all that would be privilages, not rights.

A mtf person can't "have" babies though.
It is sad for them, if they'd like to, but it's a very common sadness, unfortunately.
They could still have a biological child of their own, with their sperm, all going well. Though of course, that may not be straightforward for them either.
Reproduction is complicated, both physically and psychologically.

That is the basis of sex, reproduction.

Sex most often doesnt matter, but when it does, it really really does.

That's the heart of it.

I love and respect many LGBQT people as well.

But biological sex exists and has real effects on people's lives.

It is ok to recognise that, and seek to balance everyone's rights where there is a conflict.

This is all so sad. I want you to speak out for women, to call out this woke nonsense which is doing so much harm. I understand why you can't though.

I feel like there needs to be some sort of secret handshake or code word, a way for us to find our people, just like there used to be for homosexual people in the 40's/50's etc.

Double - you seem to be confused. Sex matters and biology matters is so many ways specifically for women. TRA's are so violent and threatening the hatred they spew forth is horrific.

Women who stand up for womens spaces know we are putting ourselves on the line, but we must keep doing it we can't go backwards. Our daughters are facing worse misogyny than many of us had to face, and it's all in the name of 'woke facism'.

I have recently returned to university as a mature student after a break of 20 plus years. First time round free speech was important and healthy debates on all subjects encouraged. As students we organised respectful and thought provoking debates. This time round I am really shocked at how any sort of healthy debate is immediately shut down and students are brainwashed into wokeness. The university is full of posters advocating this- even on toilet doors.

The course is about mothers and babies. We are not allowed to refer to the people giving birth as mothers. Recently I dared to say men and women were different. The amount of verbal abuse I received from my fellow younger students was really awful, they turned into a pack of bullies and I was accused of being sexist. I am not surprised that lecturers and academics are afraid to speak out. There is a real culture of fear.

You probably won’t believe it (I wouldn’t if I didn’t work in academia) but our union has tabled a motion that free speech is an excuse for hate speech and should be restricted. Anyone who argues in favour of it is labelled as right-wing.

That is so scary.

It's all about what someone decides you're going to say or what they decide you "really mean" rather than what you actually say.

I understand your position & I sympathise, it's sucks. I've always been hesitant to publicly stick my head above the parapet as it so often invites confrontation, (which would be fine but a lot of TRAs seem unable to stick to civilised discussion on this matter).

I have done lately though: I'm self employed so don't mind too much of any repercussions as I can afford them. Still hopeful to to encounter any but won't stop me supporting women

The thing is that going along with it won't keep you safe either. So you can go along with it all, contribute to the silencing of women and the culture of fear and authoritarianism and they will STILL come for you. Might as well be brave and start to look for ways to stand up against it.

You can be subtle, you can be funny, you can pretend innocence, or you can ask questions. But doing nothing is not okay. Join the free speech union, connect with other academics and speak up.

We all had or have to go through the process of finding our moral courage. The more you stay in cowardice and fear, the weaker you become. And it won't make you safe. It will just leave you defenceless when they do come for you. Have the courage of your convictions. Don't be a collaborator, don't be part of destroying universities, free speech and women's rights. Don't complain and make excuses why you can't do it. Lots of people are in more precarious situations than you and they are speaking up. The tide will turn but not if people take the side of the authoritarian and censors. Most people in totalitarian regimes "went along with it" in the beginning for the sake of a quiet life. You have a chance to know what kind of a person you really could be - an enabler, a collaborator, or a person of courage. Don't pretend you have no choice. Everyone has a choice.

The thing is, the only true discrimination I’ve ever experienced is related to my biological status (i.e. female) and my ability and desire to reproduce. That serious messed with my career for about 5 years and whilst childbearing I watched my male colleagues with very similar experience and qualifications get championed and promoted, even get positions made for them, whilst I was being punished for using my uterus. And now I work underneath a whole generation of men, who are my age, and have similar aged kids (fortunately they are by and large progressive and take active roles in their children’s’ lives and set a good example in that regard). You could say that it’s just because I chose to take two years out of the work place, except it’s not. There are almost no women at the pay grade above mine, but many of my peers are women, not all of them have had children, indeed many didn’t and now possibly won’t (for whatever reason). I can only assume that in the same way that I was punished for having children, they have been held back because they might.

Like most women I know, I am a very inclusive person, who cares about most of the people I come into contact with, especially at work, and who will always be championing others, regardless of sex/gender/whatever. The issue is not trans women, and it never has been, the issue is the patriarchal society we inhabit, and, some of the men we live with. When considering women’s spaces we are talking about an issue of safety, not because trans women are threatening to women in the toilets or the changing room, but because men are - indeed any man (not TW) who wants access to that space is a threat. And some of the changes that we might make societally will make that easier and by extension women more vulnerable.

Now the patriarchs must be rubbing their hands with glee watching the variously marginalised attack each other, because they don’t have to get their hands dirty. But the argument is the same as it’s always been - some men are a danger to other people, especially women, trans people, gay people, and people of different races (i.e. minorities). In order to keep people safe I’m happy to share my spaces actually, but I’d like to keep the word woman, it’s a useful classifier of a vulnerable group, with different needs to trans women, especially in the medical context. We still need a word to use to describe this group of people, it’s still important in some contexts (anywhere that biology is relevant, and also to do with measuring things like equal pay).

You may be happy to share your spaces flamingo, but other women are not and no one woman can make that decision for all.
If every woman in the world said yes except for one, it would still be a no.

I didn’t claim to have that authority. But this is a complex issue where nuance is important. I was responding to a previous poster who was spouting a lot of ‘be kind’ sentiment. This has nothing to do with being kind. The TRA are not ‘being kind’ to women when they trample over our rights and needs.

I would be willing to share my spaces with other vulnerable parties providing that we could agree that women encompasses the group of people who are biologically female and does not encompass other people. I would not be willing to share my space with people who pose a threat to me, and safeguarding is a priority. I would not be willing to compete in sport against biological males in situations where their biological advantage might render my efforts futile.

I'm of a similar age to you, OP and I feel the same. It's lonely and frustrating. I have one friend who agrees with me and another who I'm close enough to have been able to share my opinion with her but she doesn't agree. We just don't discuss the topic. She's all TWAW on her social media which annoys me because I know she hasn't done any research and I know her well enough to know that she would be horrified by the truth if she did.

Up until last year, I felt the same and would have said TWAW but there were a few things that I didn't agree with and when I looked into it more I just couldn't continue to support the cause once I knew the harm it was causing for women. I am kind up to a point but I've discovered that I draw the line when my rights and the rights of all women are jeopardised.

Pretty much everyone I follow is 'woke', my timeline is filled with trans activism. It turns my stomach to see smart women who consider themselves feminists give away their own rights and protections and I feel deeply for all the young people who will be sucked in and affected by this agenda. I've had to make a secret twitter account to voice my opinions. My timeline on there is a breath of fresh air.

There are almost no women at the pay grade above mine, but many of my peers are women, not all of them have had children, indeed many didn’t and now possibly won’t (for whatever reason). I can only assume that in the same way that I was punished for having children, they have been held back because they might

Or ... those of us who have made it into the 12% of the professoriate who are women [adult-human-female] have been "punished" in a different way: we have not had children.

There are of course, just as complex reasons for this as for the way that women who have had children have been "punished" but our sacrifice (again based on biology) is often a bit invisible (men in our positions generally have a partner & children).

It's often not a choice, and by this I don't mean physical infertility - I suppose I'd call it 'social infertility.' And

And we get flak for that (selfish, bitter, not attractive enough to find a husband, careerist, aggressive - you know the score), as well as the lower pay, unconscious bias, and all the other crap that women in academia deal with. Indeed, that all women in the workplace anywhere deal with.

And bythe way, I find the term "terf" to be an egregious slur, and the term 'cis" to be offensive.

No way do I "identify" with the system of gender roles & stereotypes which seeks to oppress me. I am a woman, not a subset of my sex.

I do wonder whether some women just do not realise how tough the fight was for the rights they take for granted.

For example, I was 12 when the trades union case for equal pay for women (for the same jobs) was brought into law. We are still fighting for the principle of equal pay for work of equal value.

Look at how badly kindergarten/nursery workers are paid compared with, say garage mechanics.

How old were you all when the possibility of rape in marriage was recognised in criminal law?

How old were we all when the possibility of coercive control was added to definitions of domestic violence?

And what is the rate of successful rape prosecutions at the moment?

The #bekind and #NoDebate sort of stuff comes from a position of some privilege. Always able to control one's surroundings and intimate care, for example. THink about it ...

@Alethiometrical - ah, my viewpoint is slightly different because I am not an academic. I have worked my whole career in HE though, in a more corporate/enterprise role. This year I left HE to join the private sector. So my reflections on promotion etc are slightly different to yours. The women who are now my peers have come from all over the place, including the sector we work in, but also other picnic sector and also financial services. There is a definite trend that we have all been held at this pay and seniority point. In my case I know it is because I had children at a time other team members were being promoted, in their case it’s presumably because of the fear they might take a year’s mat leave. One was told she would never progress because she ‘wouldn’t play the game’.

I do know and appreciate that high ranking female academics may well have sacrificed their personal happiness for professional success. It makes me very cross. In fact, I left my postdoc for that reason, I could see the way a colleague was being treated appallingly for having a baby, and I knew that trying to conceive was on our medium term horizon. I do know some female profs with children, they are truly outstanding thinkers and researchers, but it has not been easy for them. Basically, I would love to work in a world where what people are planning to do with their uterus is not the business of their employer.

*other private sector

*I know legally it’s not the business of my employer but it doesn’t feel that way

The lack of being allowed to debate is causing only the most extreme views to be heard. I believe in treating people, trans or not, with empathy and defending their human rights. But this goes both ways. I feel there a huge gap between deliberately trying to cause distress for a trans man or women, and raising concerns about sharing prisons/shelters etc. You can be pro trans rights but want to protect female spaces. I dont think it's an either/or situation. I think there is a space for a respectful debate but with cancel culture we only hear the extremist views. I do not agree with some of the hateful language I hear online and I dont want to be associated with it but unfortunately there doesnt seem to any room for people in the middle.
A PP mentioned that there doesnt seem to be much fuss of F2M transitions. I would disagree but I think the focus around language seems to be almost exclusively around female issues. I dont understand why we cant use the phrase "women and people with..." especially regarding medical issues. It is vital that it is clear who the medical information is being directed to. I work in social care and some of the client group I work with would have no idea if they have a cervix or what the word menstruate means. Information regarding cervical cancer on my governments national health website the word women wasnt used once, its page for prostate cancer just mentioned men not "people with prostates", erectile dysfunction was again just men/males not people with penises. I would genuinely like to hear from transpeople if they would find the phrase "women/men and people with...." offensive or would it be an acceptable way of inclusion for everybody.
There has to be some sensible and respectful debate on how to address these issues, otherwise you just push those on the fence further and further away and they end up turning to the more bigoted sides of the internet.

Dependent on context (i.e. outside of discussions re sanitary ware or provision), if I read the word 'menstruator' I would not know if it applied to me or not. Menstruate when, under which conditions?

I think "women and trans men", for example, is fine, but non-binary people might not include themselves under that.
I feel a bit like I was brought up completely differently from other people - "woman" and "man" etc was used purely to refer to whether you are xx or xy, with no implications about how masculine/feminine someone is, feels, looks, wants to be, their views on social constructs etc. Life would be simpler if we kept to those usages surely?

Do you ever consider leaving academia because of this headfuckery? I wouldn’t be able to cope with it.

Do you sit there quietly collecting knowledge and arguments in case one day you’re able to speak up?

If gender is a made-up social construct and all-round Bad Thing, why do people go to such enormous lengths to switch to a different one? (You don’t have to answer this - I’m not sure there is an answer.)

I really feel for you. All this is madness. I don’t understand it although I do try. For the first time in my life I’m afraid to argue about a subject publicly. I’ve had many arguments with the far right about brexit, immigration etc and that is much less scary than arguing with the left - and yet I consider myself left-wing. The left have got it so very wrong when people who are essentially on their side are afraid to question anything they say.

@RealityNotEssentialism

With pronouns nobody has said anything but more and more people at work are including them and I worry about the day that we receive instructions from management about it.

If I ever get told to do this I’ll just put “feel free to use whatever pronoun you see fit for me”.

I think I’ve been noted as being GC as I send the annual staff survey form back every year with “gender” crossed out all over it and write “sex” instead! 😂

I'm also a gender critical millennial. It is very lonely! My closest friend feels similarly to me but most of my other friends are as you describe.

Have also had to stop discussing it with my friend of over 10 years as we were close to a permanent fall out. It does mean I've stopped discussing it online. I am part of an organisation that recently gave a platform to a woman who had been deplatformed. We were sent loads of abuse but I dont regret it at all.